Diminishing Returns on Avoidance

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:55 am

Othniel wrote:I'm not getting a "before diminishing returns" label on block % on live at the moment. I don't know whether this is a typo or not, or whether DR hasn't been implemented for block or something yet.

Is it possible for people to do a quick check to see if this is/isn't true for beta?
The "X rating adds % stat" is before diminishign returns. The version written on your sheet(the one you mouseover to see the tooltip) is already diminished.

Block rating never gets diminished.
Image
I am not allowed to seduce the abyssal's lunar mate.
User avatar
Snake-Aes
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 15540
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:15 am
Location: Thorns

Postby ziggyunderslashone » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:11 am

Eanin wrote:In layman's terms, what kind of DR does one see at:


25% dodge? = 68.6%
30% dodge? = 59.4%
35% dodge? = 50.8%
User avatar
ziggyunderslashone
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:33 am

Postby Eanin » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:23 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
Eanin wrote:In layman's terms, what kind of DR does one see at:


25% dodge? = 68.6%
30% dodge? = 59.4%
35% dodge? = 50.8%


Thank you very much.

Wow. That's really low. Back to stacking stam, I guess :P.
Image
Image
User avatar
Eanin
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:47 am

Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:26 am

It's not that bad O.o I lost what would be maybe 3,3% dodge and 1,5% parry compared to what they'd be without DR
Image
I am not allowed to seduce the abyssal's lunar mate.
User avatar
Snake-Aes
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 15540
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:15 am
Location: Thorns

Postby Candiru » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:29 am

Remember that the more avoidance you have, the more valuable each 1% is to you.

DR means that it keeps being worth about the same, whereas before it became exponentially better to stack avoidance.

eg +10 dodge
@89% avoidance lowers your damage by 90%
@50% avoidance lowers your damage by 20%

DR is a good thing, imho
Image
Candiru
 
Posts: 2479
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 12:21 pm

Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:30 am

Candiru wrote:Remember that the more avoidance you have, the more valuable each 1% is to you.

DR means that it keeps being worth about the same, whereas before it became exponentially better to stack avoidance.

eg +10 dodge
@89% avoidance lowers your damage by 90%
@50% avoidance lowers your damage by 20%

DR is a good thing, imho
If it's role is to straighten the Ratings' value(which is what it looks like) then yeah I'm with you that DR is a good thing.
Image
I am not allowed to seduce the abyssal's lunar mate.
User avatar
Snake-Aes
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 15540
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:15 am
Location: Thorns

Postby Eanin » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:32 am

Candiru wrote:Remember that the more avoidance you have, the more valuable each 1% is to you.

DR means that it keeps being worth about the same, whereas before it became exponentially better to stack avoidance.

eg +10 dodge
@89% avoidance lowers your damage by 90%
@50% avoidance lowers your damage by 20%

DR is a good thing, imho


I hadn't thought of it that way. Good point.

Still, I was stacking dodge before the patch because it got better with each point. Now, I don't have that reason.

To be honest, I've just been throwing on the tanking item with the highest ilevel. Everything seems kind of the same now. The only stat that truly impresses me is strength.
Image
Image
User avatar
Eanin
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:47 am

Postby Candiru » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:43 am

I always like to stack armour when I can, since I <3 it so much.

Rings, cloak, glove enchant etc.

I can hit the armour cap with an ironshield potion and the parry trinket use, with inspiration up. used to use that for kalecgos enrage, now I have shield wall so I might not do that any more.

Shame imp.lay on hands is 12points.
Image
Candiru
 
Posts: 2479
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 12:21 pm

Postby ziggyunderslashone » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:47 am

Eanin wrote:Still, I was stacking dodge before the patch because it got better with each point.

Precisely why it requires diminished returns!
User avatar
ziggyunderslashone
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:33 am

Postby Eanin » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:36 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
Eanin wrote:Still, I was stacking dodge before the patch because it got better with each point.

Precisely why it requires diminished returns!


I wasn't arguing against the change :).

Anyway, I'm a little puzzled by the miss chance changes. Even though I can see my parry and dodge chance on my character sheet, what my chance to be missed is after DR is a complete mystery to me. Is it on the character sheet somewhere?

I'd like to stay at 102.4% if I can, and I'm fairly close. Without that number, though, I can't really be sure.
Image
Image
User avatar
Eanin
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:47 am

Postby majiben » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:41 am

Eanin wrote:
ziggyunderslashone wrote:
Eanin wrote:Still, I was stacking dodge before the patch because it got better with each point.

Precisely why it requires diminished returns!


I wasn't arguing against the change :).

Anyway, I'm a little puzzled by the miss chance changes. Even though I can see my parry and dodge chance on my character sheet, what my chance to be missed is after DR is a complete mystery to me. Is it on the character sheet somewhere?

I'd like to stay at 102.4% if I can, and I'm fairly close. Without that number, though, I can't really be sure.
You can't get it to display directly with blizzard's frames. You could get it indirectly if your gear has no parry rating on it. take your parry chance, subtract base parry and parry from talents and what is left over is your parry chance from defense which is equal to your miss chance from defense.
Amirya wrote:some bizarre lovechild of Hawking, Einstein, and Theck
User avatar
majiben
Moderator
 
Posts: 6999
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:37 pm
Location: Retired

Postby ziggyunderslashone » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:46 am

That'd explain the lack of research I guess, I take it theres no api command for it?
User avatar
ziggyunderslashone
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:33 am

Postby Eanin » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:47 am

Majiben wrote:
Eanin wrote:
ziggyunderslashone wrote:
Eanin wrote:Still, I was stacking dodge before the patch because it got better with each point.

Precisely why it requires diminished returns!


I wasn't arguing against the change :).

Anyway, I'm a little puzzled by the miss chance changes. Even though I can see my parry and dodge chance on my character sheet, what my chance to be missed is after DR is a complete mystery to me. Is it on the character sheet somewhere?

I'd like to stay at 102.4% if I can, and I'm fairly close. Without that number, though, I can't really be sure.
You can't get it to display directly with blizzard's frames. You could get it indirectly if your gear has no parry rating on it. take your parry chance, subtract base parry and parry from talents and what is left over is your parry chance from defense which is equal to your miss chance from defense.


Eck. Thank you.

Isn't there some sort of script like getmisschance() or something?
Image
Image
User avatar
Eanin
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:47 am

Postby ziggyunderslashone » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:50 am

Eanin wrote:getmisschance()

getyourchancetobemissed()
User avatar
ziggyunderslashone
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:33 am

Postby Winchester » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:00 am

Diminishing returns on avoidance.

First what are Diminishing Returns?
A diminished return is when something gets gradually less effective the more you get of it. Think of it like armor. If you have 0 armor and you then get 1000 armor, you wouldnt get the same % mitigation as you would if you went from 15000 to 16000 mitigation.

Image
The above picture only shows dodge you get from gear and does not factor in base dodge and talents.

To avoid tanks stacking too much avoidance in Wotlk (no pun intended) Blizzard implemented diminishing returns to dodge and parry.
Diminishing returns (DR) are calculated separately, so it’s better to balance dodge and parry instead of stacking one over the other.
There are not DR on base avoidances and avoidances gained from talents (such as anticipation and deflection), however avoidances gained from buffs that increase agility do suffer from DR.
To calculate DR from dodge and parry you first need to know how much you’re getting before the DR kick in.
For the agility part do note that for 1 % dodge you will need 20 agility at level 60, 25 at level 70 and 52.084 at 80.

Remember to not calculate your base defense and agility into this.
Dodge = ((Defenserating/defenserating for 1 skill at your level)*0.04) + (dodgerating/dodgerating for 1% dodge at your level) + (agility/agility for 1% dodge at your level)
Parry = ((Defenserating/defenserating for 1 skill at your level)*0.04) + (parryrating/parryrating for 1% parry at your level)

So to calculate your real avoidance (after DR), you use this formula:
Dodge w/DR = 1/(0.011347+(0.956/Dodge))
Parry w/DR = 1/(0.021275+(0.956/Parry))

Example:
You’re level 80 and nekkid, you put on some gear. This gear gives you 100 dodge rating, 50 parry rating, 150 defense rating and 75 agility.
Dodge = ((150/4.918)*0.04) + (100/39.348) + (75/52.084) = 5.2% dodge.
Parry = ((150/4.918)*0.04) + (50/49.185) = 2.36% parry

Dodge w/DR = 1/(0.011347+(0.956/5.2)) = 5.123%
Parry w/DR = 1/(0.021275+(0.956/2.36)) = 2.345%

So your total Dodge would be Dodge w/DR + Base Dodge. And naturally Parry would be Parry w/DR + Base Parry.


copy paste from http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... hp?t=15212
Seal of Posting
220 Mana
Instant Cast
Fills the paladin with the urge to troll, granting each post a chance of luls.
Only one seal can be active on the paladin at any one time.

Unleashing this seal will bump your thread.
User avatar
Winchester
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:56 am

PreviousNext

Return to WotLK

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest