Sunwell in 3.0.2 (TL;DR: Nerfwell)

Kalecgos, Brutallus, Felmyst, M'uru, Entropius, Kil'jaeden

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Postby inthedrops » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:34 am

I forgot to add....

After KJ I got a whisper from one of my healers telling me I was taking no damage and wondering why. They were all melee adds. I told him it's because my block value is through the roof combined with the melee nerfs. Total rough guess here, but I think I went from around 700 block value on that fight to well over 1000 (counting libram). 4 mobs whose attacks are reduced by as much as 300 to 400 = extreme difference.
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Postby kram » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:43 am

Brut we had a warrior pull 4k dps.
KJ took three shields and we only had 2-3 armageddons in the last phase..
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Postby Kayoto » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:20 pm

After farming Sunwell (except KJ who we were very close to beating before attendance started dropping due to impending 3.0) for awhile, I like Nerfwell much better.

Maybe it's just because Prot is more fun to play now, but the fights going faster and being easier just felt more fun to me. Yes, it was kind of sad when we killed KJ our first attempt of the night and it wasn't anything compared to our 27% best attempt before the patch, but not wiping to stupid things like people being dumb on Felmyst, or having to flask/consumable hardcore for Brut, and killing Mu'ru after one humanoid phase makes up for it.

Nerfwell is Funwell imo.
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Postby kram » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:36 pm

Kayoto wrote:Nerfwell is Funwell imo.


It was somewhat disappointing how easy they made it, we had multiple people make huge mistakes even MT's d/c during fights and we still oneshot bosses.

And from what Ive heard we can expect the same from at least Naxx in WotLK.
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Re: Sunwell in 3.0.2 (TL;DR: Nerfwell)

Postby Dragonzbane » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:06 pm

Knaughty wrote:They may have nerfed Sunwell a little too hard... first five bosses are basically trivial now. We were 4/6 last week - killed first five bosses last night, in about 3 hours.

• Biggest issue with Kalec was making sure we had some people in demon realm before killing the dragon.


Yup, we wiped once because of that.


Knaughty wrote:• Brute took just over 3 minutes. We actually wiped once to bugged MD - Brute killed the hunter, ate the melee & the burn healers, then Tank 1 picked him up. We almost 18-manned him despite that, failed when another healer or two died to burn.


Wiped the first time because I forgot RF, second time sub 3min.


Knaughty wrote:• Felmyst was under 10% at second flight phase, dead on landing. Peeled off the MT twice....


Same, I did nothing but cleanse after I saw my threat getting crazy.


Knaughty wrote:• Twins... well, I killed us by peeling the second twin off the ranged tank :roll: Tankadin threat might be a little high right now... I'm doing 4k TPS while "off-tanking". Anyway, 2-shot after I sat on my hands once first twin was dead.


Seriously, I didn't even pay attention and pulled her off at the last few percent, fortunately I managed to bubble her back to the lock and we drop them in under 3min.


Knaughty wrote:• M'uru our old record was P1 21%. Took us ~3 tries to kill him, timing was way off due to how fast M'uru goes down - roughly double. We eventually had no DPS on spawns at all, I soloed them. First clean transition to P2 he went down.


Our old RL transfer back from Drow to help us finish up with SWP and he switched up our strat which had us getting to the single diggits and even popping into P2. Unfortunately, we couldn't field a solid raid 3 of the 4 days last week and didn't get any good attempts in or we would have dropped him already.

Got to P2 once last night and someone hit a fiend or whatever and the second time we took him down easily.

I'll be happy to see and probably down KJ tonight but I got no satisfaction out of last nights raid.
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Postby Tisiphone » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:42 pm

We ran in at M'uru, fucked up majorly, killed him.
It's sad, too easy and not fun.

On Brut we didn't have any timers, so it was like :
-"OMG WE HAVE 4 SLASHES"
-"Ok, taunting now"
And melees also spread Burn, we had 10 people with burn up at the same time. And it was also my first time there, couple that with the lack of timers and you got some confusing rotation. And yes, we one-shotted him.
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Postby fafhrd » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:14 pm

Meh. If it keeps us raiding till wrath, instead of more and more people getting sick of the stress and dropping in attendance every week like we expected, I'm happy. 1 raid night a week instead of 4 I can happily deal with.
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Postby Tieran » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:26 pm

My guild had its best attempt on Kalecgos about a week ago (retard checks ftw - we have the gear) and that was 17% and 13% respectively between dragon + demon.

Today we did Kalecgos and Brutallus in 1 night of raiding - I know myself at least didn't have any addons really worth note - only pally Power.

When we killed Kalecgos it was a joke.. people mucked up badly and we still got him 2nd attempt of the night.

Brutallus was a bit of a shock for me.. but meh. It seemed alot more like a tank and spank fight - apart from the two fuck ups from the tanks..not really there fault, but poorly timed taunts / learning the fight. Thats why there were a few wipes.

Shame I had to spec holy for it - thats all I am saying :( still got some crazy numbers flying off via holy..
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Postby knaughty » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:51 pm

We got to Kil'Jaeden for the first time last night, and while it's clear he's been nerfed, he was still very challenging.

We raided an extra hour to try and get a server first...

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Got him down another percent or two during the wipe ~378k

Still have a chance for a server first on Saturday.
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Postby Kayoto » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:13 pm

Knaughty wrote:We got to Kil'Jaeden for the first time last night, and while it's clear he's been nerfed, he was still very challenging.



That's because there are only two differences between pre and post nerf KJ:

1) Lower chance of your reflections tank dying to Rogues.
2) You can have some of the more, shall we say, "special" DPS die to things like Darkness and Fire Bloom and still make the timers easily.

I mean, it does make a BIG difference still, especially for guilds who had been at him for awhile before the patch, but it's definitely still a challenging fight.
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Postby knaughty » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:30 pm

Kayoto wrote:That's because there are only two differences between pre and post nerf KJ:

1) Lower chance of your reflections tank dying to Rogues.

Only reflections that killed me were mages - but I think we were down a healer or two.
Kayoto wrote:2) You can have some of the more, shall we say, "special" DPS die to things like Darkness and Fire Bloom and still make the timers easily.
Yeah, the DPS check for post-nerf-KJ is easier than the DPS check for "pre-nerf-M'uru", which we were basically meeting (pre-nerf M'uru P1 to 21%).

Really happy with the difficulty level of nerfed KJ. It's low enough that we'll get him in two raid nights - nearly got him first night we tried. But easy enough that the "post-nerf-zerg-guilds" like us will be able to get him in the couple of weeks we have available.

Still feels hard enough that people will get some satisfaction from killing him.

Makes sense from Blizzard's perspective. They're thinking:
• The only fight that really counts in Nerfwell is KJ
• So make the rest dead easy
• People can get to KJ, see him, get PWNED
• But still get a lot of satisfaction from killing him if they're good enough to manage it.
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Postby Cakes » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:50 pm

Knaughty wrote:
Kayoto wrote:That's because there are only two differences between pre and post nerf KJ:

1) Lower chance of your reflections tank dying to Rogues.

Only reflections that killed me were mages - but I think we were down a healer or two.
Kayoto wrote:2) You can have some of the more, shall we say, "special" DPS die to things like Darkness and Fire Bloom and still make the timers easily.
Yeah, the DPS check for post-nerf-KJ is easier than the DPS check for "pre-nerf-M'uru", which we were basically meeting (pre-nerf M'uru P1 to 21%).

Really happy with the difficulty level of nerfed KJ. It's low enough that we'll get him in two raid nights - nearly got him first night we tried. But easy enough that the "post-nerf-zerg-guilds" like us will be able to get him in the couple of weeks we have available.

Still feels hard enough that people will get some satisfaction from killing him.

Makes sense from Blizzard's perspective. They're thinking:
• The only fight that really counts in Nerfwell is KJ
• So make the rest dead easy
• People can get to KJ, see him, get PWNED
• But still get a lot of satisfaction from killing him if they're good enough to manage it.


You didn't spend any time on him prenerf to understand the awesomeness of the fight. The whole beauty (can I use that word when talking about raid design?) of the fight was that all the timers lined up so well. The 85->55 burn down was designed to squeeze in 3 collapses, one at the beginning and two for the darkness calls. The 55->25 burndown was built to be even more of a nailbiter with more orbs and armageddons raining down on people.

The fight now can be done, given the same raid setup as before, with no darknesses being cast. It almost completely negates 1 of his raid wiping abilities as well as making one of the dragon abilities nigh useless. The fight might still be moderately hard due to the raid damage going around, but you'd think the same thing about KJ that you do about M'uru had you seen the fight prior to today.
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Postby fafhrd » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:12 pm

Cakes wrote:
Knaughty wrote:
Kayoto wrote:That's because there are only two differences between pre and post nerf KJ:

1) Lower chance of your reflections tank dying to Rogues.

Only reflections that killed me were mages - but I think we were down a healer or two.
Kayoto wrote:2) You can have some of the more, shall we say, "special" DPS die to things like Darkness and Fire Bloom and still make the timers easily.
Yeah, the DPS check for post-nerf-KJ is easier than the DPS check for "pre-nerf-M'uru", which we were basically meeting (pre-nerf M'uru P1 to 21%).

Really happy with the difficulty level of nerfed KJ. It's low enough that we'll get him in two raid nights - nearly got him first night we tried. But easy enough that the "post-nerf-zerg-guilds" like us will be able to get him in the couple of weeks we have available.

Still feels hard enough that people will get some satisfaction from killing him.

Makes sense from Blizzard's perspective. They're thinking:
• The only fight that really counts in Nerfwell is KJ
• So make the rest dead easy
• People can get to KJ, see him, get PWNED
• But still get a lot of satisfaction from killing him if they're good enough to manage it.


You didn't spend any time on him prenerf to understand the awesomeness of the fight. The whole beauty (can I use that word when talking about raid design?) of the fight was that all the timers lined up so well. The 85->55 burn down was designed to squeeze in 3 collapses, one at the beginning and two for the darkness calls. The 55->25 burndown was built to be even more of a nailbiter with more orbs and armageddons raining down on people.

The fight now can be done, given the same raid setup as before, with no darknesses being cast. It almost completely negates 1 of his raid wiping abilities as well as making one of the dragon abilities nigh useless. The fight might still be moderately hard due to the raid damage going around, but you'd think the same thing about KJ that you do about M'uru had you seen the fight prior to today.


People are actually killing KJ now without any darknesses being cast? That's really impressive.

We spent about a month on him pre-nerf, and killed him for the first time last night. While the rest of the instance was ridiculously easy, KJ was still challenging, but only I think because we hadn't been farming him for weeks or months like the other bosses - in terms of absolute difficulty there are several TBC fights I'd say are/were harder than nerfed KJ. Right now the only people that can really wipe you on KJ are the orb controllers screwing up, everyone else you can afford to have die (well, not the reflection tank either), as long as not too many of them die on the same attempt.
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Postby inthedrops » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:21 pm

KJ had a lot of things that made him hard. One of which was a very strict DPS requirement to get him from one phase to the next without running out of shields. The DPS check for this fight is really what made it so challenging as a whole (individually people had their own challenges I'm sure).

I can't tell you how many times we called out to wipe it because one dps died early and it was better to just give up and start again than to be 5 seconds too late for the shield.
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Postby knaughty » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:28 pm

Cakes wrote:You didn't spend any time on him prenerf to understand the awesomeness of the fight. The whole beauty (can I use that word when talking about raid design?) of the fight was that all the timers lined up so well. The 85->55 burn down was designed to squeeze in 3 collapses, one at the beginning and two for the darkness calls. The 55->25 burndown was built to be even more of a nailbiter with more orbs and armageddons raining down on people.

The fight now can be done, given the same raid setup as before, with no darknesses being cast. It almost completely negates 1 of his raid wiping abilities as well as making one of the dragon abilities nigh useless. The fight might still be moderately hard due to the raid damage going around, but you'd think the same thing about KJ that you do about M'uru had you seen the fight prior to today.

Except because we don't have the DPS to burn through the phases that fast, we're doing it the same way as you're describing, pre-nerf.

We might be doing 85-55 in two collapses instead of three - we're certainly not doing it in zero. After one night we're usually managing to get to 55% with 25 alive, though we have a couple of slow learners who might fail at collapse sometimes.

55-25 is (for us) a real nail-biter - will we do enough DPS - will people dodge meteors - will the shield orbs die fast enough - will Knaughty pick up the reflections fast enough, etc, etc. The 30%-25% bit is diabolical - that's where most attempts are falling apart.

It's pretty clear that if we'd had a month's practice on it that the current version would be trivial. But given we don't HAVE a month to practice, the tuning seems about right to us.

Remember we were only 4/6 + partial M'uru.

People who are fresh to him will still be facing a decent challenge. It took us 5 hours of attempts to get him to 3%. It's probably not as hard as Vashj, but there's very little time to get it done, it needs to be easy enough that you don't need 25 people being perfect to get it done. All alive at 55%, maybe 20/25 at 25% should be doable.

It certainly doesn't feel as nerfed as M'uru. M'uru was HARD, I've heard more than one person say M'uru is harder than KJ. M'uru now feels trivial. KJ isn't trivial.
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