Single Target Taunt Glyph - Blizzard Response

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Postby Bk992004 » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:09 pm

Snake-Aes wrote:It does, the extra difficulty comes in the form that, if you have more threat on the mob, it takes more threat to overcome that 10% difference that you need to steal it back without a taunt.



Yeah, forgot about that 10% thing...
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:10 pm

Belloc wrote:2. Coordination over Vent (3, 2, 1, TAUNT!) does result in both paladins successfully taunting the other paladin's mob.

Personally I'd rather have a mechanic thats designed to cope with the task than rely on server latency.

But lets for a moment say this is all fine, that the four horsemen are easy enough that you don't actually need the abilities the fight expects you to have. Pallies have tanked p2 ros for example.

What about the next one? Any fight with a taunt switch mechanic is an issue, anything that involves pulling 1 of several targets off another tank a serious one.

Theres a really easy way to solve it all. Magic buttons.
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Postby Belloc » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:22 pm

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
Belloc wrote:2. Coordination over Vent (3, 2, 1, TAUNT!) does result in both paladins successfully taunting the other paladin's mob.

Personally I'd rather have a mechanic thats designed to cope with the task than rely on server latency.

But lets for a moment say this is all fine, that the four horsemen are easy enough that you don't actually need the abilities the fight expects you to have. Pallies have tanked p2 ros for example.

What about the next one? Any fight with a taunt switch mechanic is an issue, anything that involves pulling 1 of several targets off another tank a serious one.

Theres a really easy way to solve it all. Magic buttons.

Honestly, I don't know of any other fights where our taunt is an issue. I've yet to encounter trash that causes wipes when our taunt is used and I don't think there are any boss fights where you need to taunt one mob off a tank that has multiple mobs.

The only current fight I know of where our taunt is an issue is Bear boss, and I haven't had a problem with that in months. I'm not sure if the fight was fixed, but I haven't experienced any problems. How many taunt bosses are there that temporarily change targets anyway? I cannot think of a single other boss than Bear.

Other than 4HM, where the problem exists only in theorycraft and poor raids, there are no other bosses where our taunt is an issue. If you can come up with one, I'll consider it.
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:30 pm

Belloc wrote:
ziggyunderslashone wrote:
Belloc wrote:2. Coordination over Vent (3, 2, 1, TAUNT!) does result in both paladins successfully taunting the other paladin's mob.

Personally I'd rather have a mechanic thats designed to cope with the task than rely on server latency.

But lets for a moment say this is all fine, that the four horsemen are easy enough that you don't actually need the abilities the fight expects you to have. Pallies have tanked p2 ros for example.

What about the next one? Any fight with a taunt switch mechanic is an issue, anything that involves pulling 1 of several targets off another tank a serious one.

Theres a really easy way to solve it all. Magic buttons.

Honestly, I don't know of any other fights where our taunt is an issue. I've yet to encounter trash that causes wipes when our taunt is used and I don't think there are any boss fights where you need to taunt one mob off a tank that has multiple mobs.

The only current fight I know of where our taunt is an issue is Bear boss, and I haven't had a problem with that in months. I'm not sure if the fight was fixed, but I haven't experienced any problems. How many taunt bosses are there that temporarily change targets anyway? I cannot think of a single other boss than Bear.

Other than 4HM, where the problem exists only in theorycraft and poor raids, there are no other bosses where our taunt is an issue. If you can come up with one, I'll consider it.


Well Heigan was also listed. I'm not really concerned with what you'll consider or not though. Tell me, what's the downside of giving us a single target taunt? The only downside that's ever been offered is homogenization, which is really laughable with all things being considered. So there are at least 2 bosses that there are issues with, and countless amounts of trash where it's annoying, and we don't really have any clue about most of the bosses coming, so it's not a question that we can really answer.
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Postby Belloc » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:35 pm

There's nothing wrong with giving us a single-target taunt. I certainly wouldn't mind having one. The fact is that we don't need it.

It would make certain fights easier, but we've managed well enough without it and we will continue to do so. Seriously, once we're all fighting 4HM and killing the first add before the taunt becomes an issue, we'll stop complaining. When we're fighting Heigan and not having any issues, people will forget that it was ever a consideration.
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:41 pm

Belloc wrote:There's nothing wrong with giving us a single-target taunt. I certainly wouldn't mind having one. The fact is that we don't need it.

It would make certain fights easier, but we've managed well enough without it and we will continue to do so. Seriously, once we're all fighting 4HM and killing the first add before the taunt becomes an issue, we'll stop complaining. When we're fighting Heigan and not having any issues, people will forget that it was ever a consideration.


Well I'm not sure where folks said we needed one to be viable, so that's a moot argument for the most part.

It's a pain in the ass to not have one, and it has been for me for a lot of content in TBC. If the 4 horseman and Heigan didn't exist, I'd still be asking for one. The simple matter is, RD has a higher failure rate than any other taunt, and it's a failure rate that can not be mitigated by the player. Honestly, having a backup taunt is simply common sense given that fact.

If the standard is that there must be a boss that's incredibly hard for us to do without one, then I sure as hell hope they don't apply that to any of our other skills.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:46 pm

Belloc wrote:There's nothing wrong with giving us a single-target taunt. I certainly wouldn't mind having one. The fact is that we don't need it.

Put it this way.

Any encounter that relies on taunt switching is badly designed in an environment in which you expect all tanking classes to have a target specific taunt.

You could a) not include any or b) ensure all tanking classes have one. Needed is subjective, poor design less so.
Last edited by ziggyunderslashone on Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Belloc » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:49 pm

Having a backup taunt makes the most sense out of any argument, in my opinion. I won't ever argue against that. I'd also like to see our taunt fixed with regards to failure-upon-boss-switching-targets.
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Postby Khayne » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:49 pm

Belloc wrote:Honestly, I don't know of any other fights where our taunt is an issue. I've yet to encounter trash that causes wipes when our taunt is used


Who says trash will allways be weak or that if there´s some powerful mobs it´ll be only a pack of 2-4? Think pulls with stuff like multiple bear riders from ZA. you want them spread over evenly to all tanks yet now if you try tank one off the other tank you´ll get all of his.

I dont like relying on blizzard encounter design to go around our lack of single-target taunt, since i mean it Is possible to have a dps DK/warrior/druid taunt something and us taunt off him. It´s a stupid workaround but hey, we can do it so it´s no problem.

Also, is the 25men version of 4H really that zergable that you never need to taunt one of them? Or is it a "well just overgear it and then you´ll have enough dps to zerg him fast enough", i mean P2 RoS is tankable by paladins too, just need abit overgeared dps.
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Postby Belloc » Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:24 pm

Khayne wrote:
Belloc wrote:Honestly, I don't know of any other fights where our taunt is an issue. I've yet to encounter trash that causes wipes when our taunt is used


Who says trash will allways be weak or that if there´s some powerful mobs it´ll be only a pack of 2-4? Think pulls with stuff like multiple bear riders from ZA. you want them spread over evenly to all tanks yet now if you try tank one off the other tank you´ll get all of his.

I dont like relying on blizzard encounter design to go around our lack of single-target taunt, since i mean it Is possible to have a dps DK/warrior/druid taunt something and us taunt off him. It´s a stupid workaround but hey, we can do it so it´s no problem.

Also, is the 25men version of 4H really that zergable that you never need to taunt one of them? Or is it a "well just overgear it and then you´ll have enough dps to zerg him fast enough", i mean P2 RoS is tankable by paladins too, just need abit overgeared dps.

The 10-man version is the zergable version. 25-man groups should be bringing 3 tanks.
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:30 pm

I don't think anyone is saying that it's impossible, but it adds a difficulty only caused by a pally tank who is supposed to be relatively equal. Really these bosses are merely icing on the cake, there's ample enough reason based purely on TBC content, to justify having a backup taunt. It has been one of the things we have been requesting since our first peek at our beta skills. On the other side of the coin, there's no good reason not to have one.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:49 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I don't think anyone is saying that it's impossible

To be fair I did, but I concede that was largely for dramatic effect.

The situation it presents is impossible (latency aside), its only by virtue of being short enough to brute force that its made feasible.
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RD on mob

Postby Jellodyne » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:00 am

It sounds like some of the people having difficulty with RD when the mob switches targets are targeting the raid member who should have aggro rather than casting directly on the mob. As of 2.3 I believe you can RD directly on the mob, which is effectively the same as RDing on the mob's target at the instant you cast. Prior to that I always used a targettarget macro to the same result.

I haven't had any wierd failures, even if the mob switches targets while I'm reaching for the button since the cast always finds the person with aggro.

Of course doing it that way I have had cases where another tank beats me to the taunt and I end up peeling 3 mobs off HIM instead of a clothie, which is always fun. (/y HALP! /healme) But I probably also got the mob I wanted.
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Re: RD on mob

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:16 am

Jellodyne wrote:It sounds like some of the people having difficulty with RD when the mob switches targets are targeting the raid member who should have aggro rather than casting directly on the mob. As of 2.3 I believe you can RD directly on the mob, which is effectively the same as RDing on the mob's target at the instant you cast. Prior to that I always used a targettarget macro to the same result.

I haven't had any wierd failures, even if the mob switches targets while I'm reaching for the button since the cast always finds the person with aggro.

Of course doing it that way I have had cases where another tank beats me to the taunt and I end up peeling 3 mobs off HIM instead of a clothie, which is always fun. (/y HALP! /healme) But I probably also got the mob I wanted.


Nope, I have issues either way. I really never target the person directly and whether it's my macro or blizz's internal code, there doesn't seem to be a noticeable difference in failure rates.
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Postby aureon » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:22 am

can't we taunt and HoSalv the other tank ?_?
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