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Single Target Taunt Mechanic

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Consecrator » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:13 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
Consecrator wrote:If we get a second taunt, then obv with the way things are now (Tank unity) druids and warriors would also need another taunt for muti targets.

They have one, and it's downside is a long cooldown.

That form of penalty wouldn't work for the task a target specific paladin taunt is required for, so it needs another.


I dont count their giant AOE taunts cause of the long CD. If you want to give us a second taunt with a long CD then i guess that would be fair. I personally think its pointless.

I dont run with 2 pally tanks. I like to run with other tanking classes so the taunt thing is not as big of an issue i guess. If youre running two pally tanks and the taunting is an issue im not sure then (lack of exp in double pally tanking except in ZA)
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Postby 2ndNin » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:30 am

30s cooldown single target taunt, triggers RD cooldown as well, uses 9% base miss chance, and is affected by the glyph.

Voila, 1 taunt, guaranteed not to miss basically (so its not wasted), fits into the boss taunt timers (40s or so for 4hm?), and means we still have a single taunt.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:48 am

2ndNin wrote:30s cooldown single target taunt, triggers RD cooldown as well, uses 9% base miss chance, and is affected by the glyph.

Voila, 1 taunt, guaranteed not to miss basically (so its not wasted), fits into the boss taunt timers (40s or so for 4hm?), and means we still have a single taunt.

Yep, that'd be the ideal.
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:44 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
2ndNin wrote:30s cooldown single target taunt, triggers RD cooldown as well, uses 9% base miss chance, and is affected by the glyph.

Voila, 1 taunt, guaranteed not to miss basically (so its not wasted), fits into the boss taunt timers (40s or so for 4hm?), and means we still have a single taunt.

Yep, that'd be the ideal.


Means we won't get it :)
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Postby 2ndNin » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:59 am

Yeah. Alas so, we won't get it, but thats the easy solution, we still have 1 taunt, we still have the three target target of target thing, and we have a reliable, long cooldown taunt that doesn't remove our flavour. Triggering RD means its never going to be used on the same basis as other taunts.
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JoJ would be a nice mocking blow

Postby Quacky » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:57 pm

I think this is a great idea and feels it fits with a paladin. JoJ as a mocking blow in addition to what it does is great imo.
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Postby Nicki » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:14 pm

Let me take the time to point out

Challenging shout = 3 rage = 3 min cd 6 sec taunt all targets
Mocking blow (with glyph) = single target taunt 1 minute cooldown melee range
taunt = 20 yard range single target taunt 8 sec

Thats 3 possible taunts all useable within a few pulls of each other...Let alone the fact you dont need mocking blow glyphed or even mocking blow :\..

I say warrior tanking has taken too much of paladin tanking and become amazing. Where as paladins are ending up the way they always end up broken. Not amazingly broken but i can see it happening pretty fast...

Im really emo tanking on the warrior was just so much more fun so im probably rerolling warrior too tank or staying ret on my paladin...
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Postby Amanor » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:52 pm

Consecrator wrote:So hes saying that we should have a second taunt? I understood it as to take the place of our current taunt. If youre asking for a second taunt then its even worse. If we get a second taunt, then obv with the way things are now (Tank unity) druids and warriors would also need another taunt for muti targets. I like the triple taunt because it's one of the few things we have that are different. everyone complains that we are to alike now and then they want to take away one more of our unique abilities. Shame on you good sir. Shame on you all!

p.s - the ! was only for effect, im not really mad.


Hate to burst your bubble, but...well...why? Why would Warriors and Druids (And I presume you simply overlooked Death Knights) need a 3-target equivalent taunt if Paladins got a single target taunt? What content is designed around it? What situations arise that necessitate it?

I can't help but ask a second question as well. If Paladins getting a single target taunt means Warriors, Druids and Death Knights need a 3-target taunt as well, shouldn't that also, by your logic, mean that Paladins and Death Knights need AoE Fixates (Like Challenging Shout/Roar) and furthermore that Druids, Paladins, and Death Knights would also require single target Fixates (like Mocking Blow) that can be talented into second taunts?

Because really, they don't. None of that logic applies. Paladins need a single target taunt because content is designed around Tanks having such. The End. If you can point out content that is designed around RD, I'd say you have a case, my friend.
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Postby Consecrator » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:44 pm

Hate to burst your bubble, but...well...why? Why would Warriors and Druids (And I presume you simply overlooked Death Knights) need a 3-target equivalent taunt if Paladins got a single target taunt? What content is designed around it? What situations arise that necessitate it?

I can't help but ask a second question as well. If Paladins getting a single target taunt means Warriors, Druids and Death Knights need a 3-target taunt as well, shouldn't that also, by your logic, mean that Paladins and Death Knights need AoE Fixates (Like Challenging Shout/Roar) and furthermore that Druids, Paladins, and Death Knights would also require single target Fixates (like Mocking Blow) that can be talented into second taunts?

Because really, they don't. None of that logic applies. Paladins need a single target taunt because content is designed around Tanks having such. The End. If you can point out content that is designed around RD, I'd say you have a case, my friend.[/quote]

I was saying that if they give us somthing they have they will have to give them somthing we have, jst because of the fairness they ahve been tryign to implement as of late. I love the three taunt and do not want it to change t a single target taunt. I have saved plenty of wipes with muti target taunt in heroics cause a moron pulls an extra mob or somthing. Im not saying it wouldnt be nice to have a single taunt, obv it would make things easier, i just like to have our own things that make us who we are as tanks. For the record i did forget deathnights before but didnt mean it, just forgot to throw them in there so i apologize. Its not that they need a 3 target taunt becuase content is designed around it, im just saying the way it seems latley is that they want us all to have similar things to one another. And yes, if they give them 3 amn taunts then people would complain that we have no aoe (mall target) taunts, so i think they would need to do that, but i dont want that either.

Just cause content is meant to work one way doesnt mean it is the only way it can be done. Somtimes you need to change the starat to fit your raid , not change your raid to fix a certian strat. If we did every fight the way blizz meant it to be done you wouldnt be a MT, you would be a healer.
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Postby Macha » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:57 pm

I was saying that if they give us somthing they have they will have to give them somthing we have


Just like we got something when warriors and druids got equal or better AOE tanking than we do.

Oh wait. Balancing doesn't work that way. ;)
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Postby Daethiel » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:59 pm

Do not forget to add in that they gave our ranged taunt function of our RD to warriors and druids....

In point of fact, it seems that they have given all the advantages of paladin tanking to the other tanks and we got.... a 51pt talent swipe ability and a crappy version of shield wall.

If you are so concerned about fairness then its time to wake up and start spreading it around to the paladins who have lost their advantage on AE tanking over other tanks but gained very little in return.

Edit: That is not to say I am dissatisfied with the paladin buffs overall. I just think that it is perfectly reasonable to ask and expect that we have a little more utility when it comes to taunting. Considering the other tanking classes have a great deal more options and utility in this range it is more than fair for paladins to get some form of it.
Last edited by Daethiel on Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Consecrator » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:04 am

Daethiel wrote:Do not forget to add in that they gave our ranged taunt function of our RD to warriors and druids....

In point of fact, it seems that they have given all the advantages of paladin tanking to the other tanks and we got.... a 51pt talent swipe ability and a crappy version of shield wall.

If you are so concerned about fairness then its time to wake up and start spreading it around to the paladins who have lost their advantage on AE tanking over other tanks but gained very little in return.


I agree with you completely, i hate that they gave away our aoe tanking niche (even though we are still better at it), i was just sayng that thats what they are doing, not that i agree with it . I didnt mind being less of a tank in certian areas as long as we had somthing to call our own, like aoe tanking.
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Postby 2ndNin » Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:55 am

As I said, give it a long cooldown and have it trigger RD's 8s cooldown and you have the best solution, we get a taunt, but ones thats not realistically useful in the same way Warrior et al taunts are, and we retain the RD mechanics. The long cooldown works simply into the boss timers such that we can pick a target off of someone for fights like 4 horsemen etc.

The other option would be something like:

Righteous Challenge:
While activated any target inside your consecration is taunted. Last 5s (to make sure you get a tick).

Voila, melee range taunt, fits with existing mechanics, but is way overpowered (and suicidal) at even the 30s cooldown we need.
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Postby Amanor » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:56 am

Consecrator wrote:I was saying that if they give us somthing they have they will have to give them somthing we have, jst because of the fairness they ahve been tryign to implement as of late.


I think you misunderstand what the fairness they're trying to implement is. It isn't a "Buff A, Buff B, C, and D" matter. If it were, Warriors, Paladins and Druids would have a Death Grip equivalent, Pallies and Death Knights would have a Charge/Intercept equivalent, and all four classes would have an equal amount of emergency buttons, fixates, taunts, etc.

The fairness they are trying to implement is to put every tank on equal footing. They tanks to be interchangable, which means they have (or at least should have), a list of base tanking tools taken into consideration when designing an encounter. Thus, every tank is supposed to have the basic armament in order to tank the content. That is why abilities are being distributed. Warriors, and to a lesser extent, Druids, weren't as desired in 5-mans because of an inability to generate threat consistently on multiple targets. The solution was to grant that to every tanking class. But if an encounter is designed with sensitive taunt mechanics, or based around 3/4s of the taunts out there which target the enemy and not the player targeted, we get left in the cold. That's why we need a single target taunt. So it will not be an issue.

Consecrator wrote:I love the three taunt and do not want it to change t a single target taunt. I have saved plenty of wipes with muti target taunt in heroics cause a moron pulls an extra mob or somthing. Im not saying it wouldnt be nice to have a single taunt, obv it would make things easier, i just like to have our own things that make us who we are as tanks. For the record i did forget deathnights before but didnt mean it, just forgot to throw them in there so i apologize.


Let's ignore for a moment that the notion of saving an idiot in a heroic puts a sour taste in my mouth. If said idiot has pulled enough mobs to warrant a 3-target taunt, you do realize we have other options still. We can now instant cast AS to snap threat onto those targets, and hell, 3/4 of our Hand spells (Sacrifice/Salvation/Protection) could likely prevent the idiot from faceplanting immediately. If said idiot continues to build threat on multiple targets, said idiot deserves to die. I doubt, with our newfound DPS, that one player in a heroic will be integral to the completion of the encounter, unless perhaps they're your healer, and then you're just fighting the clock as to when s/he takes the group down..

In short, the justification for our taunt to remain a 3-target taunt should not be idiot control.

Consecrator wrote:Its not that they need a 3 target taunt becuase content is designed around it, im just saying the way it seems latley is that they want us all to have similar things to one another. And yes, if they give them 3 amn taunts then people would complain that we have no aoe (mall target) taunts, so i think they would need to do that, but i dont want that either.


I can't think of any situation that would merit any Tank needing a 3-target taunt once, let alone once every 8-15 seconds. Keep in mind that two of the other tanks do have an AoE fixate just in case idiot from the prior example pulls threat. If they're pulling threat consistently where the fixate becomes necessary more often, well, that's an idiot who is out of your hands.

Consecrator wrote:Just cause content is meant to work one way doesnt mean it is the only way it can be done. Somtimes you need to change the starat to fit your raid , not change your raid to fix a certian strat. If we did every fight the way blizz meant it to be done you wouldnt be a MT, you would be a healer.


Right, there are workarounds and encounters can be completed under more challenging circumstances. But Blizz's mantra is that Tanks need to be interchangeable, and that means we can't afford to be the ones who make an encounter needlessly more complicated. If they're designing encounters around single-target taunts, they need to make sure every tank has one.

If they're designing encounters around tank fears, they need to make sure every tank has a means of breaking one.

If they're designing encounters around ranged frontloaders, they need to make sure every tank has one.

Doing anything less is setting up the tank(s) lacking in such to be benched.
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Postby Frickit » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:55 am

The only time I even need to taunt (and why i like the multitaunt) is when something goes wacky by mistake...healer pulls a group by accident or the phone rings and they dont realize im not close enough AS or w/e. I can run in with my boars speed, cast RD and get basically the whole group back onto me and save the pull.

In combat under normal circumstances I rarely ever taunt.
In a raid Im VERY careful about using a multitaunt
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