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Mitigation Comparisons – 4 tanks

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Postby Sëryph » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:39 pm

New Update, easier to see whats happening with DS. Also added parry haste accounting, and DW.


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Last edited by Sëryph on Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:54 am

Current Status

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Removed the proposed sott change, until it arrives I think it's important to illustrate "something" extra is needed. I still maintain that it should be something more interesting than a flat modifier.
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Postby Zironic » Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:16 am

Looking at your chart:

DK:
Your avoidance is a weee bit high considering your raw value is equal to pally/war
Bear:
You're just better then pally/war at everything
Pally/War:
Equal enough that I don't really care
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:37 am

One thing I'm looking to add (I keep coming up with things to build, I suspect I'm doing more theory than playing at the moment) and was pointed out to me the other day, is parry haste. There was a good thread on ej some time ago that worked out an average haste per proc over a period. With all the parry and a physical based strike system, dks would lose more than the others I'd assume.

edit: maybe another sheet though, lots of external data needed there.
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Postby Deathwing » Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:58 am

Ziggy,

I noticed in your spreadsheet that you have a 6% modifier on STA and STR for a frost dk. Are you assuming frost tanks are getting Veteran of the Third War? Most frost specs I've seen aren't:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jcEZGgxzIcd0hRVosx0g

Also, you should add the glyph component for UA, I don't see any frost tank not using that.

Last thing, why would DK's suffer more from an enemy's chance to parry haste? Wouldn't a 2H and Rune Strike favor DK's?
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:07 am

Deathwing wrote:I noticed in your spreadsheet that you have a 6% modifier on STA and STR for a frost dk. Are you assuming frost tanks are getting Veteran of the Third War?

I was going for maximum survival. I've not gotten back around to threat just yet, so I've no idea how that idea would hold up. Probably not well, but in all cases I built for mitigation in isolation.

Odd about the glyph, didn't come across it when I was adding the others. Will update.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:10 am

Deathwing wrote:Last thing, why would DK's suffer more from an enemy's chance to parry haste? Wouldn't a 2H and Rune Strike favor DK's?

Lots of parry, lots of parry haste. It's probably less than warriors to be fair.
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Postby Sëryph » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:31 pm

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
Deathwing wrote:Last thing, why would DK's suffer more from an enemy's chance to parry haste? Wouldn't a 2H and Rune Strike favor DK's?

Lots of parry, lots of parry haste. It's probably less than warriors to be fair.



Thats not the parry haste people talk about being bad.

The problem occurs when The boss parries you, which is why expertise is very good for you

(BTW I just put the parry haste formulas in my SS and it would be very easy for you to lift them from there as its only reliant on your attack speed the bosses attack speed and the bosses parry rate minus your expertise)

Heres some formulas for you

Parry Haste Approximation

References:


Testing shows that that the parry haste mechanic causes your next attack to come 40% of your weapons speed sooner unless it would take it below 20%.

    100-60: Full effect
    060-20: Averages to half effect
    020-00: No effect


This averages to a haste of 24% on one weapon swing.

Formula for how many parries occur each swing.

P is equal to the bosses parry percent, E is equal to the tanks expertise BAS is equal to the bosses adjusted attack speed, and TAS is equal to the tanks adjusted attack speed.

Code: Select all

1 - [(1-[P-([E/4]*.01)])^(BAS/TAS)]
   


You would then take this and multiply it by .24 to get the average parry haste effect.

Code: Select all

(1 - [(1-[P-([E/4]*.01)])^(BAS/TAS)])*0.24= Parry Haste

   


Because to apply this formula you will need to know the adjusted weapon speed of attacks, Here is the haste formula. WS equals the base weapon speed, H# is equal to a haste percentage source, and HR is the total haste rating.
Code: Select all

WS / ( (1+(H1 )) * (1+(H2 )) * (1+(((HR )/100)/15.7)) )



Note: you will notice that that the equation is dependent on the speeds of the participants, and the result is a speed modifier. This is not quite true because Parry Haste is not an actual haste increase, and while because of this effect the results will not be 100% accurate they will be approximately accurate.

Assuming a Dk with no geared haste, in a raid with Imp WF, and 2% Haste from a Ret Pally, a two handed weapon of 3.6 speed, 28 expertise, and a mob attacking at a standard 2 attack speed.

Bosses having been shown to have between a 10 and 15% parry, lets assume the worst case scenario 15%.

Code: Select all

2 / ( (1+(-0.2 )) ) = BAS = 2.5



Code: Select all

3.6 / ( (1+(.2 )) * (1+(.02)) ) = TAS = 2.94



Code: Select all

(1 - [(1-[.15-([28/4]*.01)])^(2.5/2.94)])*0.24 = Parry Haste

(1 - [(1-[.15-(7*.01)])^(2.5/2.94)])*0.24 = Parry Haste

(1 - [(1-[.15-.07])^(2.5/2.94)])*0.24 = Parry Haste

(1 - [(1-.8)^(2.5/2.94)])*0.24 = Parry Haste

(1 - [.92^.85])*0.24 = Parry Haste

(1 - 0.932)*0.24 = Parry Haste

(0.068)*0.24 = Parry Haste

Parry Haste = 1.64%




Now lets assume a Warrior in the same raid, with a one handed weapon of 1.6 speed, 28 expertise, and a mob attacking at a standard 2 attack speed. All against the same boss.

Code: Select all

1.6 / ( (1+(.2 )) * (1+(.02)) ) = TAS = 1.31



Code: Select all

(1 - [(1-[.15-([28/4]*.01)])^(2.5/1.31)])*0.24 = Parry Haste

(1 - [(1-[.15-(7*.01)])^(2.5/1.31)])*0.24 = Parry Haste

(1 - [(1-[.15-.07])^(2.5/1.31)])*0.24 = Parry Haste

(1 - [(1-.8)^(2.5/1.31)])*0.24 = Parry Haste

(1 - [.92^1.91])*0.24 = Parry Haste

(1 - 0.853)*0.24 = Parry Haste

(0.147)*0.24 = Parry Haste

Parry Haste = 3.53%



I hope that helps
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:06 am

Sëryph wrote:Thats not the parry haste people talk about being bad.

The problem occurs when The boss parries you, which is why expertise is very good for you

Yarr, the issue I was thrown was the marvelous circular business of parry haste leading to parry haste. The tank adjusted attack speed will include not just static haste, but also haste from parrying attacks:

Say you're running around with 35% parry:

2/( (1+(-0.2))* (1+(0.0164))) = 2.46 BAS
(1-((1-(0.35-((0/4)*0.01)))^(2.94/2.46)))*0.24 = 0.0966 haste
3.6 / ((1+(0.2)) * (1+(0.02)) * (1+(0.0966))) = 2.68 new TAS

Only run through once of course. However, you're still not coming close to the warrior parry haste. Good stuff, most informative, cheers again!
Last edited by ziggyunderslashone on Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Deathwing » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:19 am

Sounds like calculating flurry cycles ;)

Beware, though, DK's most likely get a bye from this whole circular parry haste thing because of Rune Strike, which should up and used every white attack.
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Postby Sëryph » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:35 am

Deathwing wrote:Sounds like calculating flurry cycles ;)

Beware, though, DK's most likely get a bye from this whole circular parry haste thing because of Rune Strike, which should up and used every white attack.


Yes thats my next project is to weed out the attacks that can't parry for DK's
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Postby Sëryph » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:40 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:(1-((1-(0.35-((0/4)*0.01)))^(2.94/2.46)))*0.24 = 0.0966 haste


Not sure where your getting (0.35-((0/4)*0.01))? .35 should be the bosses parry% thats way high, and of (0/4) the 0 is the tanks expertise, few tanks have 0 expertise.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:41 am

Sëryph wrote:Not sure where your getting (0.35-((0/4)*0.01))? .35 should be the bosses parry% thats way high, and of (0/4) the 0 is the tanks expertise, few tanks have 0 expertise.

Boss hitting the player.
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Postby Sëryph » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:15 pm

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
Sëryph wrote:Not sure where your getting (0.35-((0/4)*0.01))? .35 should be the bosses parry% thats way high, and of (0/4) the 0 is the tanks expertise, few tanks have 0 expertise.

Boss hitting the player.


Ah see what your doing now.
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Postby Sëryph » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:35 pm

Ok take a look at the parry haste in this version, I believe it should be pretty accurate.

Excel 2007

Open office Calc
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