me .. the good humored offtank

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me .. the good humored offtank

Postby Garwin » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:37 pm

taken from mmo-champion's class panel 1 section

Paladins were decent off-tanks but not great main tanks, this is fixed in WotLK. Paladins should focus on protection gear instead of spell power.


not that it matters anymore but this did kinda make me smile

for all the fights I chain chugged mana pots and basically dived INTO the patch of fire/cleave/saberlash/shatter etc.. it's nice to know my efforts as an offtank stacked high on spellpower and lower than I'd have liked on health and avoidance have been noted and rewarded

I feel like telling my healers that "it was the devs all this time!! they MADE me do it 8) it was there Vision !!"
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Postby Seraphia » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:44 pm

What I get from that quote, is the amusing notion that the Dev's didn't anticipate Prot Paladins actually using 'mage swords' in TBC.


Makes me wonder if we were designed under the assumption we would only have that odd 100+ spell damage from armor... :?



Oh well, it's a moot point.
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Postby Sonic » Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:19 pm

Seems more like they didn't expect us to do as well as we did.
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Postby Warcraft » Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:23 pm

I think they just used the word off-tank carelessly there. What they meant I think is that Paladins made pretty good secondary tanks. I agree with the comments of them not expecting us to use spell damage weapons or doing as well as we did. Probably had to do with how hard every Paladin tank tried before it was generally accepted.
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Postby Belarkan » Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:08 am

Warcraft wrote:Probably had to do with how hard every Paladin tank tried before it was generally accepted.


I'll tend to think that we paid a very high price the comment from Nihilium.
I have been much more popular amoung players - and especialy healers - than with my cotanks that happen to also be morons RL/GM.
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Postby Songblade » Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:20 am

What is this quote from Nihilum?

And I think half the reason that prot pallies were frowned on and laughed at is because alot of them sucked...

I hate to say it, but I saw more bad prot pallies than good ones, and I think the public just got that general impression.
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Postby Belarkan » Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:28 am

Songblade wrote:What is this quote from Nihilum?


Here's the link:
http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/06/19/aw ... w-insider/

Guilds that go with Protection Paladins and Moonkins will not do as well as the ones that bring an optimal raid setup. This is a fact.


Songblade wrote:And I think half the reason that prot pallies were frowned on and laughed at is because alot of them sucked...

I hate to say it, but I saw more bad prot pallies than good ones, and I think the public just got that general impression.


The reason why we were frowned was because we were discovering the protection paladin gameplay.
Wasn't very easy to figure how to tank nightbane with divine shield + pvp trinket.
Also remember all the theorycraft was still an ongoing work by that time.
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Postby crabcrouton » Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:47 am

I can't even count how many Paladins I see running around with the Krystalline Kopesh, and I mean as recently as this month.

The fact of the matter is that the Paladin class already attracted those players who are... shall we say... very easy-oriented. That's what the class was designed around, even Blizzard admitted this at the last Blizzcon. Compare this to Druids, you've got a totally different player base.

So I think it was a symbiotic change in BC. Bliz changed Paladins to be able to tank while a fresh batch of players rolling Pally alts pushed that envelope much further than was ever intended (admittedly, we were never truly on equal footing as Warriors).
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Postby Belarkan » Sun Oct 12, 2008 2:43 am

crabcrouton wrote:I can't even count how many Paladins I see running around with the Krystalline Kopesh, and I mean as recently as this month.

The fact of the matter is that the Paladin class already attracted those players who are... shall we say... very easy-oriented. That's what the class was designed around, even Blizzard admitted this at the last Blizzcon. Compare this to Druids, you've got a totally different player base.

So I think it was a symbiotic change in BC. Bliz changed Paladins to be able to tank while a fresh batch of players rolling Pally alts pushed that envelope much further than was ever intended (admittedly, we were never truly on equal footing as Warriors).


Such move was made after 2.3. From this patch, protection paladins have had much easier time to get a tanking spot.
Bad paladin players don't do as much harms because there are good ones around and a lot of people have played with good ones.
In fact, it was a good move a lot of protection paladins were around - even bad ones - because it meant that we won the "paladins can tank".
Remembers there are tons of bad warriors too and that doesn't make warrior tanks less wanted.
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Postby Noradin » Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:04 am

Belarkan wrote:
Songblade wrote:What is this quote from Nihilum?


Here's the link:
http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/06/19/aw ... w-insider/

Guilds that go with Protection Paladins and Moonkins will not do as well as the ones that bring an optimal raid setup. This is a fact.


Songblade wrote:And I think half the reason that prot pallies were frowned on and laughed at is because alot of them sucked...

I hate to say it, but I saw more bad prot pallies than good ones, and I think the public just got that general impression.


The reason why we were frowned was because we were discovering the protection paladin gameplay.
Wasn't very easy to figure how to tank nightbane with divine shield + pvp trinket.
Also remember all the theorycraft was still an ongoing work by that time.


Mike Schramm wrote:Quick questions about classes: How many DPS warriors do you all use? Any Moonkin? Any tanking Paladins? Any enhancement Shamans?

We aim for efficiency. So no, we do not use any Moonkins, Protection Paladins, Retribution Paladins or anything that is way below the standard classes that can do a much better job at said task. We do however use bears to offtank and we sometimes bring 1-2 DPS warriors. Not because we need them for the DPS they provide, but for the buffs they give to our DPS. Overall it's more efficient. Guilds that go with Protection Paladins and Moonkins will not do as well as the ones that bring an optimal raid setup. This is a fact.


This and similar statements and RLs who treated it as the ultimate truth, made it really hard to even be allowed to do those jobs we were really unrivalled in (like Hyjal trash, Morogrim adds etc.).
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Postby Macha » Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:44 am

Blizzard actually failed at designing us badly in TBC - we did far better than we should have, I'd say. I am quite sure that both uncrushable and spelldamage weapons were not anticipated by Blizzard - the former made us viable in mitigation, the later in aggro. Without both, we'd have been bad, and look at the theorycrafting that got us to use both.

We're maintanks by accident, but luckily, we're here to stay.
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Postby crabcrouton » Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:50 am

Belarkan wrote:Such move was made after 2.3. From this patch, protection paladins have had much easier time to get a tanking spot.
Bad paladin players don't do as much harms because there are good ones around and a lot of people have played with good ones.
In fact, it was a good move a lot of protection paladins were around - even bad ones - because it meant that we won the "paladins can tank".
Remembers there are tons of bad warriors too and that doesn't make warrior tanks less wanted.

Comparing BC Paladins to Warriors is really comparing apples to oranges.

We were designed to not be maintanks, so in that sense we were more like Druids. Warriors were always wanted, even the bad ones, primarily because fights were tuned specifically to favor them.

You could make an argument that a guild like Nihilum had their pick of the best possible players. If BC Prot Pallies were designed by Bliz as the MT and Warriors designed as the Offtanks, you could bet your bottom dollar that Kungen would've rerolled a Paladin. Given equal skill, such a guild would always choose a Warrior over a Paladin because of how the game was designed to favor the former.

2.3 only really happened (with the change to combat expertise to get 10% stam) due to the Paladins who were already tanking T5 content pushing for that change specifically. Had there already not been a base of dedicated MTankadins, it would not have occurred. The history of BC Paladin main tanking can be traced back a whole lot further than 2.3.
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Postby Io.Draco » Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:33 am

QFT my friend , QFT...

I am slighty getting anoyed for one of the ammount of whines on forums by so many Protection Paladins , who started tanking ONLY after 2.3 was released

Hah I wonder how would they manage before 2.3 in raids eh?
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Postby Macha » Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:39 am

Io.Draco wrote:who started tanking ONLY after 2.3 was released


Most of the complainers actually tanked since 2.0 or even before that. Thing is: Most of us don't want to fight an uphill battle *again*

Edit: I am not saying we will do that again, though, if we get the 3% buff we're pretty much fine. But without that, we do indeed have a right to complain ;)
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