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Dual Specialization (Update)

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Is Dual Speccing a good idea?

Yes, its Awesome
27
69%
Yes, but im concerned on balance
6
15%
Not bothered
1
3%
No, it needs more restrictions
4
10%
No, terrible idea altogether
1
3%
 
Total votes : 39

Postby Katamai » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:59 am

xormik wrote:Sounds like you need to farm more. >_> Or have more gold. Respeccing 50g? << Thats sort of chump change...500g a week? You can make about 2-3k in a day. o.0...so...>> MORE FARMING, LESS WHINING.


You know, some people don't find doing the same quests over and over and OVER again just so they can fun raiding... fun?

I loathe doing dailies cause the novelty wore off after a few months and am sick of having to grind for hours for a raid.
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Postby Khayne » Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:44 pm

I dont see why some people say that you dont want "pure classes" anymore after hybrids can respec for other role more flexibly.

You got an encounter with lots of melee adds pouring from around you?

Mages can freeze some of those away from raid and thus decrease dmg taken by the aoe tanks alot. Also Ranged slows, aoe disorient (oh hai mr aoe caster pack, stop those spells now kk?). decursing aint that bad either (no, your feral tank bear wont swift out to decurse that guy that needs it when he´s got raid boss in his face). Long-range spammable CC that has good duration still beats most of the CC that hybrids can do.

or multiple demons in place? Locks banish&enslave, fear+aoe fear, multiple health+soul stones, curses, their own buffs&debuffs (shadow embrace, blood pact, demonic pact, shadowfury as aoe stun to decrease dmg from aoe packs), durable & self-healing in certain gimmicks (netherspite or such).

both of those also make alot better aoe damage than any hybrid.

need alot of interrupts? can´t go wrong with rogues, and if the mob is stunnable rogues are the best class of all to diminish damage taken by tanks. Wound, mind-numbing and crippling poisons can all be useful in certain fights and haven´t heard anyone complain much about rogues lacking in dps.

Hunters can use frost trap to slow stuff like when we all did dragonhawk adds for first time in ZA, helped me attleast alot. Also like rogues, their dps is top-notch (abit higher than if you go go ret spec when not fully geared anyway if it isn´t your main spec).

And these 2 latter ones can help tank threat quite some which in turn allows all dps to do more damage.

So yes, hybrids do offer their own nice utilities too so i do see hybrids as being the classes that get 3 raid spots more often than pure classes, but more in terms of "hybrids get 3 slots a piece, pure classes get 2" instead of "hybrids get 5 each and then you´ll take a warrior tank so hybrid tanks will qq and more priests"
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Postby Grothnir » Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:24 pm

Sabindeus wrote:I think you are reading too much into what I said. I didn't mean that you were going to be forced to utilize the dual spec system in any way. What I meant is, that having multiple specs that you switch between is an emergent behavior of the player base that the developers have decided is worth becoming a basic part of the game. To that end, they're going to implement a system to facilitate it, whereas before it was discouraged (respec cost). Having done this, they will also be making class/talent changes with this capability in mind. That's what I mean by "intended".

It's almost semantic, but it's an important nuance, IMO.

"Intended" implies, as you say, that "they will also be making class/talent changes with this capability in mind."

And that sucks, IMO.

Facilitating an emergent behavior of a vocal minority by allowing easy respecs is very different from building a game that encourages it.

Encouraging constant respecs in raid would be bad for the game, IMO. Gear dilution alone will be a headache I don't want to deal with, and that's only the first problem.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:30 pm

Grothnir wrote:"Intended" implies, as you say, that "they will also be making class/talent changes with this capability in mind."


They did address this during the Raids & Dungeons forum; someone asked if they were going to design dungeons such that after fight X, a character would have to respec into Y. The answer was a flat out "no."
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Postby crabcrouton » Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:36 pm

Amarant_Pally wrote:Hasn't done me much good thus far. ;) Only helped on Leothoras in SSC/TK (shield throw = awesome aggro during transitions), Supremus in BT/MH (besides the obvious AoE trash pulls...and same reasons as Leo + Exorcism), and Kalecgos (AR resist set, DS to remove buffs, seemingly high taunt resist).

My point, though, is this: guilds *stuck* (I mean absolutely *STUCK*) on using one tank type over another (probably a Warrior) will force you (the Paladin-trash-tank) to off-heal or off-DPS, with or *without* the dual-spec option on 1-tank boss fights. And these guilds *will* exist. If this upsets someone, then they need to find a guild that will use a Paladin tank. If I'm not tanking at least 25% of the 25man content my guild is facing (4 tanking classes, 4 * 25% = 100%), then I'll be unhappy and finding a new guild.

You cannot use examples from an era when Paladins were designed to be an offtank.

All you're proving is that Blizzard was successful in their design to keep Paladins down when it was their (Blizzar'ds) intention all along. Follow that line of logic, that they now want you to be a MT as much as the next guy, the only difference between Pallies and other tanks is how good of a tank they are. Besides, every expansion has a huge guild upheaval and new guilds are built giving a refresh for players to prove their mettle.
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Postby Grimmal » Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:59 pm

From Class Panel 2, pulled from MMO-Champion.

The dual-spec system will interface with the UI.
Action bars will flip when you switch your spec so you don't have to re-do all your keys.
It will likely also tie into Glyphs so you don't have to re-do Glyphs whenever you switch specs.


Nice to see they are taking Glyphs into mind as well as auto action bar switching. Would be very annoying to have to rebind keys constantly if you aren't using a UI mod for it. (I am, but still)
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:01 pm

Grimmal wrote:From Class Panel 2, pulled from MMO-Champion.

The dual-spec system will interface with the UI.
Action bars will flip when you switch your spec so you don't have to re-do all your keys.
It will likely also tie into Glyphs so you don't have to re-do Glyphs whenever you switch specs.


Nice to see they are taking Glyphs into mind as well as auto action bar switching. Would be very annoying to have to rebind keys constantly if you aren't using a UI mod for it. (I am, but still)


Wow, that is pretty nice, I didn't really expect that. I thought I heard them say they were considering an itemrack type of thing for it too. I wonder if it'll be flexible enough to be used in situations other than spec swaps.
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Postby Drathian » Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:05 pm

Grimmal wrote:From Class Panel 2, pulled from MMO-Champion.

The dual-spec system will interface with the UI.
Action bars will flip when you switch your spec so you don't have to re-do all your keys.
It will likely also tie into Glyphs so you don't have to re-do Glyphs whenever you switch specs.


Nice to see they are taking Glyphs into mind as well as auto action bar switching. Would be very annoying to have to rebind keys constantly if you aren't using a UI mod for it. (I am, but still)


This is insanely awesome. Thanks for posting it.
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Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:07 pm

Hmmm. Trash Tank spec, Trash Tank Glyphs. Press button! Voila! Boss Tank spec, Boss Tank Glyphs!
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:15 pm

Grehn|Skipjack wrote:Hmmm. Trash Tank spec, Trash Tank Glyphs. Press button! Voila! Boss Tank spec, Boss Tank Glyphs!

haha, that's one way to look at it!
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Postby steadypal » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:02 pm

so prot pally buffs sanc on MT, uses this feature to go holy or ret, does MT lose sanctuary?
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Postby Grimmal » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:10 pm

steadypal wrote:so prot pally buffs sanc on MT, uses this feature to go holy or ret, does MT lose sanctuary?


At a guess, I'm thinking they will account for this and remove Blessings the same as if you left the raid. Total guess, but seems like something they would prefer people not be doing.
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Postby fizikz » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:32 pm

Chunes wrote:This change will not hurt the game.

this change will not force paladins into healing roles in 1 tank fights.

Blizzard has stated time and again that their aim is to make it so that you can invite who ever you think is a good player to your raids (within reason, tanks/dps/heals will of course have to be covered one way or the other). I fail to see how dual specs will hinder this.

If it's a 1 tank fight, you need one of the two tanks to respec, just have the prot war go fury and have the goddamn shadow priest go holy. or ret pally go holy, or feral druid go resto, or ele shaman go resto.

for fucks sake guys, we as a raid have more options now than we ever did before. stop freaking out that your supposedly hardcore uber-min/max obssessed guild might ask you to spec holy now and then.

if you don't want to heal ever, don't collect a heal set or as it has been stated several times: find a new guild.


hahaha... i had a couple posts that i agreed with before this, but this just summed up everything very enthusiastically and made me giggle and want to give you a big "QFT!"
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Postby Ubung » Sun Oct 12, 2008 3:10 am

Update from blizzard concerning the affects of Dual Spec (from developer Q&A:

Q: With spellpower and dual specs, as it becomes easier to become a hybrid, how do you protect the classes who can't respec to tank or heal?
A: That's a totally valid concern. we knew goign into this, that makeing the hybrids more viable we took some of the hybrids buffs away which is threatening to some classes. we're trying to buff their utility so they are bringing something and we can't allow their damage to fall down so they can still compete. its important that those four classes are still doing a lot of damage as long as they're not doing 30-40% more damage than everyone else. the best mage or rogue should be at the top of the meter. it shouldn't be just the class.


This should allay any concerns.

so prot pally buffs sanc on MT, uses this feature to go holy or ret, does MT lose sanctuary?


Im almost certain that Blizz will limit this.
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Postby Amarant_Pally » Sun Oct 12, 2008 3:19 am

crabcrouton wrote:
Amarant_Pally wrote:Hasn't done me much good thus far. ;) Only helped on Leothoras in SSC/TK (shield throw = awesome aggro during transitions), Supremus in BT/MH (besides the obvious AoE trash pulls...and same reasons as Leo + Exorcism), and Kalecgos (AR resist set, DS to remove buffs, seemingly high taunt resist).

My point, though, is this: guilds *stuck* (I mean absolutely *STUCK*) on using one tank type over another (probably a Warrior) will force you (the Paladin-trash-tank) to off-heal or off-DPS, with or *without* the dual-spec option on 1-tank boss fights. And these guilds *will* exist. If this upsets someone, then they need to find a guild that will use a Paladin tank. If I'm not tanking at least 25% of the 25man content my guild is facing (4 tanking classes, 4 * 25% = 100%), then I'll be unhappy and finding a new guild.

You cannot use examples from an era when Paladins were designed to be an offtank.

All you're proving is that Blizzard was successful in their design to keep Paladins down when it was their (Blizzar'ds) intention all along. Follow that line of logic, that they now want you to be a MT as much as the next guy, the only difference between Pallies and other tanks is how good of a tank they are. Besides, every expansion has a huge guild upheaval and new guilds are built giving a refresh for players to prove their mettle.


So you're going to tell me that *ALL* guilds are going to be willing to accept a Pally tank? Guilds like SK Gaming, Nihilum, and the slew of other "min/max or die" guilds just...aren't going to primarily use Warrior tanks anymore?

My keyword was *STUCK*, thanks. ;)

There will be some guilds that are *stuck* on using Warrior tanks. These are the same guilds that wrote in boss guides for Hyjal and said you needed 4-6 DPS Warriors/Feral Druids to handle the trash and liberal use of Shackle, instead of 1 Pally tank.

I did mention that the future looks optimistic, and hopefully my personal chances are better. But not every guild is going to switch mentalities just because game mechanics have changed.
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