Tankadins and Caster Mobs

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Tankadins and Caster Mobs

Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:21 pm

So far, WotLK is shaping up to be pretty good, with one glaring exception, Caster/Ranged Mobs.

Currently, 2 of the tanking classes (warriors and DK's) both have fairly decent tool sets to allow them to tank casters and mitigate incoming damage.

Druids, are better off than paladin tanks because they are able to close the distance to caster mobs quickly, have the extra large HP pools to soak damage, and they do not get rage starved against caster mobs as their rage regenerates based on thier damage output.

Face it, paladin tanks are still poorly set up to deal with casters. Our damage output drops against them, we have no real way to silence or interrupt them, and dont have the large HP pools to soak damage.

They did finally give us an interrupt, but the cooldown is just too long to be of any real use in spell based fights.

So, does anyone else here hope that our fabled, long awaited 11 point talent replacement is a tool for handling/mitigating caster damage?
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:30 pm

Well we may not need a range closer with an instant cast AS. We obviously won't do as well against them, but in full tanking gear without Holy Shield in my rotation I can spam judgement, ShoR, and HotR almost indefinitely thanks to divine plea, and thats with only blessing of wisdom. Considering the regen we'll likely see in a raid, you'll probably be able to keep HS up and even consecrate some too. A lot of caster mobs are not interruptable, but you can spec for a shorter CD on HoJ easily enough if that becomes an issue.

It' not ideal, but I think this falls under the flavor difference type of thing more than anything else.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:37 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Well we may not need a range closer with an instant cast AS. We obviously won't do as well against them, but in full tanking gear without Holy Shield in my rotation I can spam judgement, ShoR, and HotR almost indefinitely thanks to divine plea, and thats with only blessing of wisdom. Considering the regen we'll likely see in a raid, you'll probably be able to keep HS up and even consecrate some too. A lot of caster mobs are not interruptable, but you can spec for a shorter CD on HoJ easily enough if that becomes an issue.

It' not ideal, but I think this falls under the flavor difference type of thing more than anything else.


I would agree, if warriors, druids, or DK's had an effective weakness against melee mobs, but that currently is not the case.

If AS silenced mobs as well as slowed them...I would agree that we do not need a closer

Melee mitigation has been pretty well balanced, and, I suspect threat is fairly balanced too...

DPS output is not as balanced, but its better than it used to be.

Only one type of encounter specifically favors a set of tanks, and that is magic based ones...and to me, that means that tanks are still not on parity..
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Postby Velgarn » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:48 pm

Well for trash mobs, if incoming damage is problem... SoJustice + HotR! AoE random stun action.

Although I don't know if it still causes you to eventually hit DR on the stuns - it did a long time ago, but I guess as of patch 1.9 it was supposedly fixed. So this could be an awesome thing for say H MgT instances.

However, since bosses are generally immune to stuns it doesn't help there.... well unless they make it an interrupt as well as a stun like HoJ. Random, not quite as effective, but something is better than nothing right.

I mean, if threat is stupidly easy as it is and Seals are only a very small % of our TPS, then switching to justice actually becomes *gasp* viable!

If it causes issues in PvP - give only PvP DR. Fixed.
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Postby Chunes » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:53 pm

it's been said and flamed already before in many forums. But i still wish JoJ was a spell interrupt rather than a movement speed debuff.

-_-

that would solve a lot of problems for me since i do 0 pvp.
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Postby Conaan! » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:55 pm

Velgarn wrote:Well for trash mobs, if incoming damage is problem... SoJustice + HotR! AoE random stun action.

Although I don't know if it still causes you to eventually hit DR on the stuns - it did a long time ago, but I guess as of patch 1.9 it was supposedly fixed. So this could be an awesome thing for say H MgT instances.

However, since bosses are generally immune to stuns it doesn't help there.... well unless they make it an interrupt as well as a stun like HoJ. Random, not quite as effective, but something is better than nothing right.

I mean, if threat is stupidly easy as it is and Seals are only a very small % of our TPS, then switching to justice actually becomes *gasp* viable!

If it causes issues in PvP - give only PvP DR. Fixed.


i had never thought of that! great idea, come 3.0 ill probally farm H-MGT again (30 runs so far, no trinket, 2 mounts, 1 orb and already have caster/healer/melee trinkets <_<) just because of this whole change.
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Postby Bk992004 » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:55 pm

Chunes wrote:it's been said and flamed already before in many forums. But i still wish JoJ was a spell interrupt rather than a movement speed debuff.

-_-

that would solve a lot of problems for me since i do 0 pvp.



It'd also make JoJ something that people actually use... I used it 2weeks ago b/c someone here said they thought it made a difference against BigBadWolf in Kara (it doesn't), but before that, it's been probably a year since I last used it.
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Postby Chunes » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:57 pm

yep, last time i used it on live was "battle of hillsbrad" quests at like level 27. I have yet to use either SoJ or JoJ in the beta and i'm 78 now.

it's not even on my effing action bars.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:03 pm

Bk992004 wrote:
Chunes wrote:it's been said and flamed already before in many forums. But i still wish JoJ was a spell interrupt rather than a movement speed debuff.

-_-

that would solve a lot of problems for me since i do 0 pvp.



It'd also make JoJ something that people actually use... I used it 2weeks ago b/c someone here said they thought it made a difference against BigBadWolf in Kara (it doesn't), but before that, it's been probably a year since I last used it.


It should be the primary judgement you use in PVP, so it gets used tons.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:15 pm

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Well we may not need a range closer with an instant cast AS. We obviously won't do as well against them, but in full tanking gear without Holy Shield in my rotation I can spam judgement, ShoR, and HotR almost indefinitely thanks to divine plea, and thats with only blessing of wisdom. Considering the regen we'll likely see in a raid, you'll probably be able to keep HS up and even consecrate some too. A lot of caster mobs are not interruptable, but you can spec for a shorter CD on HoJ easily enough if that becomes an issue.

It' not ideal, but I think this falls under the flavor difference type of thing more than anything else.


I would agree, if warriors, druids, or DK's had an effective weakness against melee mobs, but that currently is not the case.

If AS silenced mobs as well as slowed them...I would agree that we do not need a closer

Melee mitigation has been pretty well balanced, and, I suspect threat is fairly balanced too...

DPS output is not as balanced, but its better than it used to be.

Only one type of encounter specifically favors a set of tanks, and that is magic based ones...and to me, that means that tanks are still not on parity..


I don't see there being much of an effective difference though. We take the same damage as a druid, depending on whether spell reflect or the miss resist works only 1% less than a warrior, but caster mobs do melee and we'll be blocking where a warrior won't be. As long as encounter design doesn't abuse the spell relfect mechanic, I don't think the difference will matter.

The warrior silence on throw thing is an actual silence (not an interrupt) I believe, so that won't work even on interruptable raid mobs. Plus once you have aggro via AS, there's not really any need to charge since you can just run in at that point. If you need to get them to you just have a mage drop a countespell or LoS it, I think warriors will need this as well.
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Postby Somrael » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:30 pm

It hasn't been too much of a problem so far, based on the many successful raid paladins on these boards. We do have resistance auras and speccing HoJ seems like it's going to be popular, and though it's admittedly very situational, the Glyph of Exorcism will hold us against undead. If it ever becomes too much of a problem that HoJ and JoJ can't fix, someone in the party might be able to Kick/Silencing Shot/Counterspell/Earth Shock/Felhunter or just plain cc it.

I really think you're taking a "glass is half empty" approach here. Warriors and DK's have a slight edge against casters, we have a slight edge against large groups of mobs, etc... there'd be less incentive to play paladin if we were a prot warrior with a tiny bit of a nerf to make up for our hybrid nature.
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Postby stevebeiser » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:38 pm

Don't forget, we can make the warrior offtanks spec into AoE spell reflect.
Improved Spell Reflection
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Postby Khayne » Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:01 pm

I would like to see something to do against caster except rely that someone else will handle it or that i can HoJ stun/interrupt it.

I dont need exact spell reflect, just let me shave off some spell damage according to my block value or something.

Just something else to do than just watch that cast bar go on and him shoot me/drain me as he wants or heal himself/another mob (pug karazhans, romeo and juliet....i would have killed for an interrupt some times in there =).
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Postby Salamandra » Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:39 pm

Holy Shield actually taking off a static amount would be too powerful against things like spirit bolts at Hex Lord, any kind of Arcane Missile, etc.

What I'm thinking is something like a more powerful Dampen Magic. Reduces the spellpower of all damaging spells by #% of your block value.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:21 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Garath.Gorefiend wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Well we may not need a range closer with an instant cast AS. We obviously won't do as well against them, but in full tanking gear without Holy Shield in my rotation I can spam judgement, ShoR, and HotR almost indefinitely thanks to divine plea, and thats with only blessing of wisdom. Considering the regen we'll likely see in a raid, you'll probably be able to keep HS up and even consecrate some too. A lot of caster mobs are not interruptable, but you can spec for a shorter CD on HoJ easily enough if that becomes an issue.

It' not ideal, but I think this falls under the flavor difference type of thing more than anything else.


I would agree, if warriors, druids, or DK's had an effective weakness against melee mobs, but that currently is not the case.

If AS silenced mobs as well as slowed them...I would agree that we do not need a closer

Melee mitigation has been pretty well balanced, and, I suspect threat is fairly balanced too...

DPS output is not as balanced, but its better than it used to be.

Only one type of encounter specifically favors a set of tanks, and that is magic based ones...and to me, that means that tanks are still not on parity..


I don't see there being much of an effective difference though. We take the same damage as a druid, depending on whether spell reflect or the miss resist works only 1% less than a warrior, but caster mobs do melee and we'll be blocking where a warrior won't be. As long as encounter design doesn't abuse the spell relfect mechanic, I don't think the difference will matter.

The warrior silence on throw thing is an actual silence (not an interrupt) I believe, so that won't work even on interruptable raid mobs. Plus once you have aggro via AS, there's not really any need to charge since you can just run in at that point. If you need to get them to you just have a mage drop a countespell or LoS it, I think warriors will need this as well.


I dont understand your reference on spell reflect for warriors...it pretty much always works, and has 10 second cooldown. So on caster type mobs your talking not only mitigating a high percentage of damage, but the reflect manages to toss the damage back at the caster.

We have nothing even close to as good for spell mitigation.

Yes, casters melee...but, less than half as much as any pure melee mob...

Meanwhile, with melee, your mitigating well over 80% of incoming damage in total.

With spell casters, your mitigating what...12% maybe, a bit more if you have resists up, but in a pull with a shadow caster, fire caster and frost caster, you aint resisting much.

Now, I have seen in the past where a warrior reflected casts from multiple mobs at the same time (Hyjal Necromancers)...

I have also been the brunt of all that incoming shadow damage...no way we are even close to warriors on that type of pull.

If you think we are within 1% of the mitigation of a warrior on spell damage, your fooling yourself.
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