chest enchants

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Postby Jikozani » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:21 am

Health is also taking a hit with 3.0.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:38 am

Jikozani wrote:Health is also taking a hit with 3.0.


True, by about 500 hp or so from what I have seen.

If your tanking, Crit immunity is always the primary concern. Health pool is secondary.

Basically, you can almost guarantee a loss of 25 defense rating or more going to patch 3.0...

So, if your current defense is below 515, your probably going to need more defense on your gear.

I know a lot of paladins that were walking the line at 490-495 defense in TBC, and then mostly working on avoidance (dodge) and threat, being quite happy to sit between 16-17k unbuffed HP.

They will have to make some changes to gear.
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Postby Zibey » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:44 am

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:Basically, you can almost guarantee a loss of 25 defense rating or more going to patch 3.0...


Oo?
I was sure it was avoidance provided by defense that gets hit by DR, not Defense rating -> defense value.
If what you say is right we are in deep shit ^^.

UNLESS you mean changes to "warrior" tanking pieces... then Im less worried ;).
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:52 am

Zibey wrote:
Garath.Gorefiend wrote:Basically, you can almost guarantee a loss of 25 defense rating or more going to patch 3.0...


Oo?
I was sure it was avoidance provided by defense that gets hit by DR, not Defense rating -> defense value.
If what you say is right we are in deep shit ^^.

UNLESS you mean changes to "warrior" tanking pieces... then Im less worried ;).


You are losing 20 defense from talents...and some gear has lower defense rating on it, in favor of strength...

Block rating also took a hit on some pieces.
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Postby vschiano2008 » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:52 am

Don't forget;

you don't have 20 defense rating from talents anymore.

unless you have 510 defense, which you might or might not, you will be regemming and reenchanting gear.

i'd say 15 defense. Without it, i don't have 490 defense myself (pre 3.0)
badge gear does that they say, and i would rather not use a trinket spot for defense rating, especially conisidering i could nearly 600 health or 2% dodge out of that same slot. I'd much rather sacrafice my chest enchant and maybe a gem to maintain uncrittable.
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Postby Conaan! » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:05 am

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:
Conaan! wrote:
Garath.Gorefiend wrote:From an EH perspective, 15 Def>150hp>+6 stats


an EH perspective would take in the BV/armor/dodge factor and surely show 6 stats>150 hp, though i wouldnt be able to say definitely that 15 def > 6 stats, as i dont want to do any math atm for that.


Simple enough...the EH on gems has been out for ever...

15 sta is same as 10 def...

15 sta is obviously greater than 150 hp...

So 15def>>150hp

On 6 stats, yes you get more threat...12 AP and .24% crit, but that has no effect on EH.

Putting in the variables on my tank, at 62% mitigation:

EHA Increases:

15 Def = 1302
150HP = 789
6 stats= 747

EHA is your effective health/chance to be hit

From a survivability perspective, 15 Def is the best enchant choice for chest. The 3 BV you would get from stats enchant really isnt even close to enough to make up the EHA gap.


incorrect, your still inputting only STAMINA values into your argument, im inputting not only stamina, but AP, BV, Armor, Dodge, Crit into this, by what you seem to want to call "EHA", +6 stats> 15 defense, 15 defense rating only gives .6% total, thats including shield block %.

if your trying to base a point on blizzards gemming system, they are also the people that put spirit on pre-tbc dungeon gear.

please, redo your calculations to include all assets of 6 stats when putting it up against 15 defense.


IF you are not uncrittable, 12 defense to cloak is an extremely cheap enchant.
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Postby Zibey » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:05 am

Def aint my problem as alch., who also doesnt like 2x stam trinket idea ;) (and remember that defense rating gives almost as much pure avoidance as dodge rating - at least thats the case before DRs after which I dunno how it will look like).
Anyway - on live I have aggro problems lately, so 6 stats speaks to me as only ench that will be something between aggro and EH.
Now question is - Am I better off with some regemming for def + chest def ench + stam trinket, or maybe staying with stam gems + stats on chest + 54 defense rating trinket.
Think some maths will be in order ;).
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Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:19 am

Priorities didn't change, we just added new stats to the table

1: If you're crittable, defense > all
2: If you need EH, get EH
3: If you need avoidance, get avoidance.


6 stats means you get 6 stam, 6 str and 6 agility before talents. That boils down to about 7 stam, 7 str after kings + talents(7,3 and 7,6 actually). From an EH perspective, it's probably a better deal to get 15 defense(which cost wise is the equivalent to 22,5 stam) and trade gems with defense for pure stam or whatever. 150 hp vs 70 hp and 3 bv and 15 ap...
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:00 pm

Conaan! wrote:
Garath.Gorefiend wrote:
Conaan! wrote:
Garath.Gorefiend wrote:From an EH perspective, 15 Def>150hp>+6 stats


an EH perspective would take in the BV/armor/dodge factor and surely show 6 stats>150 hp, though i wouldnt be able to say definitely that 15 def > 6 stats, as i dont want to do any math atm for that.


Simple enough...the EH on gems has been out for ever...

15 sta is same as 10 def...

15 sta is obviously greater than 150 hp...

So 15def>>150hp

On 6 stats, yes you get more threat...12 AP and .24% crit, but that has no effect on EH.

Putting in the variables on my tank, at 62% mitigation:

EHA Increases:

15 Def = 1302
150HP = 789
6 stats= 747

EHA is your effective health/chance to be hit

From a survivability perspective, 15 Def is the best enchant choice for chest. The 3 BV you would get from stats enchant really isnt even close to enough to make up the EHA gap.


incorrect, your still inputting only STAMINA values into your argument, im inputting not only stamina, but AP, BV, Armor, Dodge, Crit into this, by what you seem to want to call "EHA", +6 stats> 15 defense, 15 defense rating only gives .6% total, thats including shield block %.

if your trying to base a point on blizzards gemming system, they are also the people that put spirit on pre-tbc dungeon gear.

please, redo your calculations to include all assets of 6 stats when putting it up against 15 defense.


IF you are not uncrittable, 12 defense to cloak is an extremely cheap enchant.


No, I did not put only stamina in the arguement heh..

I did leave out kings as, for the most part, your not gonna have kings up, except maybe in raids.

But the EHA number I gave you included both the extra avoidance you would gain from Agi and the extra AC you would gain from it.

As far as the benefit of str to BV...its only 3 freakin BV...

Most people miscalculate BV when working it into EH. BV is a static variable, it does not scale. So at best all you can do is add it in to your base hp. So 3 BV may scale up to the equivalent of 7 hp...its really not huge.

EH always looks at worst case. So in this case your looking at one hit.

Not sure how your getting that 15 Def only gives .6% avoidance.

15/2.365385056=6.34

So 6 def Rating:

6 Def rating adds .24 to dodge, .24 to parry, .24 to miss, and .24 to block

So, it adds .72% pure avoidance.

So you get a total of .48% more pure avoidance from the 15 def enchant than you get from the stats enchant

My point was that .48% avoidance is worth more than 7 stamina...

In point of fact, .48% avoidance is equivalent to about 15 stamina...

I did ignore, and i think I stated I ignored the effect on threat.

Frankly, the amount of threat your getting from the stats enchant is relatively small.

Feel free to enchant how you want, but the Chest Defense enchant is (from a tank perspective) the best one out there.
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Postby Eanin » Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:12 pm

I'm probably going to go with stats until TBC, then go back to defense. I should have not uncrittability problems after the patch, but they'll start when I start levelling again.
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Postby Jikozani » Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:15 pm

I 'll agree that if you 're crittable, this is one of the best places to get the defense you need, since that enchant is the superior one stat-pointwise.
If not however, then it doesn't matter. It boils down to the good old health vs avoidance debate. Many warriors in tbc used their zg head enchant and even stamina for shoulders (kit or naxx one), despite them being much lower ilvl than other options. The same applies to stamina trinkets.
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Postby steadypal » Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:18 pm

well on ptr im at 520 defense, so hmm if im uncrittable should i just decide between stats or 150hp, or still go for 15def?

and i also have 12 def on cloak, im above 500 should i go for agi or armor instead?
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Postby Conaan! » Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:19 pm

steadypal wrote:well on ptr im at 520 defense, so hmm if im uncrittable should i just decide between stats or 150hp, or still go for 15def?

and i also have 12 def on cloak, im above 500 should i go for agi or armor instead?


cloak you want dodge, chest personally +6 stats > 150 hp for 3.0
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Postby steadypal » Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:26 pm

Conaan! wrote:
steadypal wrote:well on ptr im at 520 defense, so hmm if im uncrittable should i just decide between stats or 150hp, or still go for 15def?

and i also have 12 def on cloak, im above 500 should i go for agi or armor instead?


cloak you want dodge, chest personally +6 stats > 150 hp for 3.0



ya but cloak with dodge even with diminish returns?

think worldi was the one that said after 25% dodge u start to see a difference :P
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Postby Jikozani » Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:31 pm

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:Most people miscalculate BV when working it into EH. BV is a static variable, it does not scale. So at best all you can do is add it in to your base hp. So 3 BV may scale up to the equivalent of 7 hp...its really not huge.


Actually, it depends on the mob, the size of his hits and your own health pool. In other words, how many hits it takes him to drop you dead.

If it's 3, then 1bv is equivalent to 3hp. If it's 4, then it's the equivalent of 4hp.
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