Stats that affect your "life span"

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Stats that affect your "life span"

Postby corc » Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:25 am

Hi, I'm Corc, and this is my first ever topic on this BB :D This is just an info topic since I'm having trouble sleeping (for the last couple weeks, and I'm tired of reading all my books over again and again) and I felt like subjecting you all to my writing :P

I was reading the thread by Jere about BV and EH and got interested in the discussion on EH and number of hit's you can take before you "die."

I never liked the idea of Effective Health. It gave me the idea of "oOo, I'm cool now that I have effectively doubled my HP!" but never gave me an idea of how much better I am doing as a tank. So, I took his # of hits idea and modified it by how many swings the boss would attempt to get that many hits and multiplied it by the time it took him to swing--giving a number in seconds and predicting your life span if you never got a heal (heaven forbid!).

Now that number might be fun to look at for a little bit, but what I really wanted to know was: How does this number change when I change one of my avoidance-type stats? So I made some tables and graphs to illustrate which stats, when increased or decreased affected your life span the most.

Here's the math I used (mostly borrowed from Jere), let me know if I screwed it up somewhere:

DR_armour = Armour/(Armour + 11960) ... lvl 73 boss
DR = (1-DR_armor)*0.94 ... because of impRF

DR*damage = damage you take

#hits = HP / (Damage*DR - BV) ... assuming uncrushable
#swings = #hits/(1-miss%) ... miss == no-damage swing from boss
LifeSpan = #swings * BossSwingSpeed ... end result

All of that is pretty simple. Here are the base stats I used to compare by:

HP = 15000
Amour = 16000
Miss = 48% (11 miss, 20 dodge, 17 parry)
Bv = 500

BossDamage = 10000
BossSwingSpeed = 2.0

LifeSpan = ~16.9 seconds
On average you'll live about 18 seconds.

Ceiling(LifeSpan % BossSwingSpeed) * BossSwingSpeed

I compared the %increase of your life span when you increased one of the 4 stats by a percentage:

Image

Basically this shows what most people already knew about. You increased your survivability by increasing your avoidance (Miss in the graph) then your HP then armour, and BV last.

Then I decided to look and see, if a harder hitting boss came along, how much would a 40% increase in a stat increase your life span.

Image

This graph shows that even when the boss hits harder, the increase in health and avoidance will always be the same %increase in your life span. BV seemed to do little in the first place, and does far less as the boss hits harder (no surprise there) and armour decreases but continues to be a viable way to stay alive, if only as a side affect of getting the next best piece of gear that just so happens to have better armour on it :).

And there ya go, I'm done. Not sure what I added to the community other than 2 graphs with coloured lines, but there they are :D
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Postby Agravaine » Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:16 am

Interesting analysis, but the one thing that isn't really discussed, is how practical it is to actually achieve those stat increases.

My "miss" in your terminology is about 48%. How feasible is it for me to improve that by 10% (i.e. 53% miss), 20% (58% miss), 30% (63% miss), 40% (68% miss).

Frankly, I'd say 10% is possible, 20% is probably out of reach, even by replacing my T4/Kara gear with T6/BT gear

On the other hand, improving my armor from 17k (raidbuffed) to over 20k (raidbuffed) is going to happen naturally as I replace T4 with T5 and T6.

As for Block Value, my block value is 380, it is feasible for me to double that eventually.
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Postby corc » Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:58 pm

Agravaine wrote:Interesting analysis, but the one thing that isn't really discussed, is how practical it is to actually achieve those stat increases.

My "miss" in your terminology is about 48%. How feasible is it for me to improve that by 10% (i.e. 53% miss), 20% (58% miss), 30% (63% miss), 40% (68% miss).

Frankly, I'd say 10% is possible, 20% is probably out of reach, even by replacing my T4/Kara gear with T6/BT gear

On the other hand, improving my armor from 17k (raidbuffed) to over 20k (raidbuffed) is going to happen naturally as I replace T4 with T5 and T6.

As for Block Value, my block value is 380, it is feasible for me to double that eventually.


I was thinking along the lines of "oh shit" buttons, like trinkets, or maybe even a grace of air totem for agility. But, true, those % increases would be hard to get some times.

Also, it was meant to compare gear sets I have, which sometimes do have a pretty big difference in avoidance.

Ultimately though, I wanted to see the long term trend of the stat increase so as to better put the short term increase in perspective. Take, Miss and HP increases: at 40%, Miss clearly is better but at 10%, it looks like 10% HP or 10% Miss would do about the same thing.
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Postby Whitewolf » Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:45 am

Interesting post.
Currently, we have a debate in my guild as to whether avoidance tanks - or stam bots - are better... I think a mix of the two generally helps.

I'm MT Paladin, and I have approximately 21 Dodge/19 Parry with appropriate trinkets, but I think it's good to be a well rounded tank, so i'm willing to drop even 1-2% Dodge for 960 HP (+51Stam Trinket, engineering trinket w/ +45stamina). Our warrior MT disagrees greatly with me as he's an Avoidance tank and despises Stambotting. While he does agree that there are certain fights that Stambots make things easier (i.e Gruul) - in the end he believes avoidance is the way to go.

It's a constant debate amongst our guild (and we LOVE to pester him...even if we agree with him...about not being a stambot ;)).

I'm going to show him this. Thanks for the info! <3

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Postby mconeone » Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:53 am

The biggest issue with avoidance stats is that they are binary. You either get hit or you don't. You are essentially relying on a roll of the dice when it comes to burst damage. Stacking mitigation stats is more reliable, but overall you will be taking a bit more damage so it requires a bit more from your healers.
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Postby Lore » Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:54 am

It really depends on what you're gearing for.

If you're gearing to kill stuff that you're not "geared up for", then you need stamina to survive the massive spike damage you'll be taking.

If you're gearing to kill farm status stuff, or if you only attempt a harder boss when you've got all the stuff you want off the previous ones, then adding more avoidance is okay because you've already got the stam you need. The thing is... adding more stam is just as effective.
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Postby Whitewolf » Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:04 am

I'd agree with that. I'm currently aiming towards having 13.5-14K unbuffed HP with my paladin - and i'm quite the distance away with current gear, but if I put my stam gear on I come to about 13.2 - and I don't have my Stam trinkets yet. I use these for fights im not worried about threat gen on. On boss fights that require fast DPS I tend to put my threat gen gear on, which drops my stam to about 12.3ish unbuffed, but my DPS is able to go full out which ends up meaning I take less damage overall, and ends the fight faster.

I think there's an upside to stambots, and avoidance tanks. I just choose to aim for both - but as a paladin I'm starting to sway towards more stam, less avoidance due to the fact blizzard owns us on base HP.
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Postby Igrado » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:05 am

First off, good information here, thank you for sharing.

However, to someone like me who hasn't the patience for quite that much theory crafting, have I found the core nugget that I can take from this post in the following quote?

Basically this shows what most people already knew about. You increased your survivability by increasing your avoidance (Miss in the graph) then your HP then armour, and BV last.


If so, then I understand how to prioritise which is better; but what if the stat changes I'm comparing are not 1% to 1%? What if I am comparing .5% increase in dodge versus say 1% increase in Armor? In other words, can anyone provide some ratios such as

1% increase in Miss = x% increase in Effective Health
1% increase in Health = y% increase in Effective Health
etc...
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Postby corc » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:27 pm

Igrado wrote:First off, good information here, thank you for sharing.

However, to someone like me who hasn't the patience for quite that much theory crafting, have I found the core nugget that I can take from this post in the following quote?

Basically this shows what most people already knew about. You increased your survivability by increasing your avoidance (Miss in the graph) then your HP then armour, and BV last.


If so, then I understand how to prioritise which is better; but what if the stat changes I'm comparing are not 1% to 1%? What if I am comparing .5% increase in dodge versus say 1% increase in Armor? In other words, can anyone provide some ratios such as

1% increase in Miss = x% increase in Effective Health
1% increase in Health = y% increase in Effective Health
etc...


It's a tough question to just sum up in one sentence like I did... stamina has its own rules which pretty much go like this: "Have enough stamina to survive the worst hit* from the boss." then after that, I tend to go by the previous statement. A hit could be a series of consecutive hits instead of just one hit.

As far as a comparison, the curves are not all linear. To get a guess though, I took the 10% increase amounts and normalized them to give you an idea of what to expect.

Code: Select all
       Amour  Miss   BV     HP
+10%   6%     9%     1%     9%
Amour  1.00   0.63    6.94  0.64
Miss   1.59   1.00   11.07  1.02
BV     0.14   0.09    1.00  0.09
HP     1.57   0.98   10.91  1.00


*The top row is rounded/truncated so you can't duplicate the exact numbers in the chart.

You can look at it like this: HP and Miss are almost a 1 to 1 comparison, while you would need a 11% increase to BV to get the same affect as 1% increase to HP.
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Re: Stats that affect your "life span"

Postby Noradin » Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:50 am

corc wrote:Basically this shows what most people already knew about. You increased your survivability by increasing your avoidance (Miss in the graph) then your HP then armour, and BV last.


This is only one side of the graph.
If you want to be better for a boss you could already tank it is avoidance > hp > armour > block value.
But if you want to downgrade in tanking stats (for spelldmg) or befor you reach a point where you could tank him it is hp > avoidance > armour > blockvalue (if you go far away maybe even armour > avoidance).
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