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10m vs 25m dungeons in WotLK - tell us about it, pls:)

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Postby Erendis » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:36 pm

Honorshammer wrote:
Erendis wrote:I get the feeling from how people are talking that 10 mans might not satisfy me as much as I hoped they would.


I will conjecture they are basing it on 10 man Naxx. The next 10 mans will probably be harder.

They showed us with ZA they can make 10 mans Hard.

You may disagree but I'd say if you ran Shadow Labs in most green/blue gear (say around 2.1), you would say Blizzard showed they could make 5 mans Hard.

I still haven't done Heroic Shadow Labs because we had such a bad time with normal (and I ran it many times getting people keyed for Kara).


100% agree. The first time I did H-Arc was with a group of people in all D3 blues and equiv. It took about 4 hours iirc.

We first went into ZA the week after our first Nightbane kill (Prince was still up). The trash to the bear boss murdered us.

In respone to Worldie: I agree that 25 mans should be absolutely harder due to the better buff stacking and More healers/DPS etc. I am just hoping that 10 mans are roughly as hard relatively. (ie as hard for 10 mans as the 25 man is for 25.)
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Postby Ankiseth » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:46 pm

The problem with making 10mans as difficult lies in the core of the group.

In a 25/40 person group, it is *very* easy to have certain classes that naturally benefit eachother. A "melee" group, a caster DPS group, a hunter group.
In a 10man, to achieve that level of synergy for your group(I know that group buffs are all raid wide now) you'd still need a surprising amount of stacking. Need a Battleshout effect? That means you might need to kick your second Holy priest for another holy paladin, or that second rogue buddy you have for a Warrior.
Sound unrealistic to raid stack for difficult bosses? Stackwell Plateau is currently viewed as the toughest boss fights, a place where my raid comp gets shifted almost every boss. Scaling that down implies either: 1-2 people get swapped out to maintain that level of difficulty. OR you have a "diverse" group for stacking group buffs(limiting already. We love you, Joe Warlock, but we already have a Warlock and a Boomkin).

10 mans will always be "easier" in terms of blizzard needing to assume worst case(INCREDIBLY limited buffs) and less downsie raids...

If they ever make a 10 man M'uru, I dread to think how horribly the raid will have to be stacked :\
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Postby knaughty » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:10 pm

10-man raid design can't assume that any particular class, buff or debuff is present.

It that has to be tuned at a rather "lowest common denominator" level. Perhaps not down to "this can be done by 10 druids" but it also won't be tuned for one particular optimised 10-man team. It doesn't even seem to be possible to get everything in a 10-man, but you can go close.

Given that 10s have to be tuned so that you can get by with "10 druids" if you instead have "highly optimised spec mix" you're going to be hugely better off and find the content far easier.

The other factor is that there simply can't be more that two teams required for anything - half the 10-man is doing one thing, half is doing something else. In a 25, you can require 3-4 things happening at once.
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Postby 2ndNin » Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:29 am

Its not true that you can only have 2 groups in a 10 man instance, what you cannot have is 3+ independent "dungeon" groups, ie: you cannot have 1 healer, 1 tank, 2 dps and a 5th man doing something, what you can have though is:

Boss Group - Tank, 2 DPS, 1 Healer
Side Group 1 - 2 Kite / slow dps
Side group 2 - 1 tank, 1 dps
Stun group - 1 dps
Healer 2 covers the other 3 groups.

Think of the Opera event in Karazhan, the Oz version. Taking it the way it is, you run in and tank everything (even in blues). But imagine if they had a debuff that stacked while close:

Courage: Roar's damage increases by 10% per stack
Heart: Tinman attacks 10% faster per stack
Yappiness: Tito runs 10% faster and barks 10% louder
...

So instead you need a person with a fire spell to take the strawman to a corner, your tank has to kite Tinman around (like vashj's striders), roar must be feared (make him undead, vulnerable to fear, so Priests, warriors, paladins, warlocks can fear him, or he can be tanked to the side). You now have 3 groups minimum, dorothy and tito are a thorn in your side, but the trick would be to kite dorothy between the other adds so no single debuff stacks too high.

10 man does not equal less difficult or less interesting, it means you just need to make the challenges "near soloable", so Kael'thas:

Thaldred - still kites
Capernian - Conflags inside 29 yards, doesn't if only 1 person in there (maintains movement, removes the 2nd dps role)
Sanguinar - fears everyone bar the tank close to him (no need for fear wards / stance dance)
Engineer - damage set so basically him + capernian can be kept up by 1 healer + some hots

Weapons -
Bow gets taken by a ranged
Axe gets taken by a tank (high damage)
Mace / Shield, Sword, daggers get taken by one tank
Staff is taken by a melee

Again damage is tuned to be suitable for the 2.5 healer range.

Kael'thas comes up, Fireballs hit for 90% of the tank's health with the debuff up, (so it won't kill you, its just very close, since you can't basically have dedicated tank healers), shield is set to be dps'd down by ~4k raid equivalent dps (4x1k dps in live, thats basically za level dps, a lower level group can down it by letting the phoenix kiter + other dps take it down as well).

Flying phase, more like the heroic version, slightly less raid damage targetted directly, but steady and sustained damage and avoid the balls.

The fight maintains the 4+ group strategy, the difference is the damage is tuned down to be manageable and the "zomg zerg" on the fireballs is needed but not mandatory (if you can heal 90% of the tanks health. It could be horribly hectic and require a lot of coordination. Looking at ZA there is a sense of this:

Eagle: 1 Tank + 1 Healer / Raid
Bear: Tanks + 2 Healers / Raid
Dragonhawk: Side Group / Tank Group / Raid
Lynx: Tank Group / Totem Group / Raid

Malacrass you work in two groups early on to down stuff, it doesn't have to be as epic as a 250,000 health mob, a couple of 50-60,000 health mobs can push a 10 man as hard as the bigger health pools do in 25 mans. I hit the enrage on Shade of Aran Recently (deliberately), and to be honest its actually hard to do, you need to survive 15 minutes of fighting, watching flame wreaths, etc. Shade of Aran with 3x the Health and drinking whenever he hits 10% mana would be a pretty epic fight, the duration can be kept up with a well geared group (we had no problems healing 15 mins with a T4-6 group, assuming its set at T6 level you could up the damage by 50%-100% and it would work nicely (probably the low end of that, Aran can pump a lot if you aren't careful, and its all magic). Make him actually close to the enrage, and he is a strange and interesting fight. Heck to break it up have him with 2x the health, and get bored at 20% of his health, walks off an reads a book while you fight 2-3x mirror images of him (acting more like regular mages, with 2 effects up at once, so 2 of [Blizzard, FlameWreath, Arcane Explosion], but have flame wreath "deflect" part of the explosion so its not a choice of near wipe or near wipe).

10 man != boring or lack of complexity, the phase 2 of the 5 man Kael'thas is harder than the phase 5 of the real one, and the phase4/1 equivalent I would probably give it to the 5 man as well unless there are adds still up in the 25 man.
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Postby Sari » Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:16 am

Knaughty wrote:It doesn't even seem to be possible to get everything in a 10-man, but you can go close.


you can actually get every buff and debuff in a 10 man raid. (if 1 healer is sufficient :D)
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Postby Splug » Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:18 am

Hrm, a guildmate mentioned he was able to cover every raid buff/debuff with 7 people using the raid manager thing on mmo-champion.

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Postby Dapaladin » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:02 pm

What are the Number fo tanks and healer generally used in naxx 25?

2 tanks and 7 healers? (random guess)
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Postby Strom » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:04 pm

Dapaladin wrote:What are the Number fo tanks and healer generally used in naxx 25?

2 tanks and 7 healers? (random guess)


I thought it was 3 tanks and 6 healers?
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Postby Splug » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:12 pm

It's balanced around 3 tanks and 7 healers.

LFM will usually yield 7 tanks and 3 healers.

You do the best you can, but yeah 6 healers is manageable.

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Postby Senador » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:20 pm

10 man != boring or lack of complexity, the phase 2 of the 5 man Kael'thas is harder than the phase 5 of the real one, and the phase4/1 equivalent I would probably give it to the 5 man as well unless there are adds still up in the 25 man.


The 25 man is harder for both versions...

In his phase 4, you have to deal with Mind Controls, the arcane disruption, managing your raid to deal with those, and you normally have to actually deal with the Shock Shield/Pyroblast, (which does three in a row instead of one) instead of trying to race DPS him before he can actually use this ability. In addition to dealing with birds/eggs/flamestrikes and his normally hard hitting fireballs.

In his phase 5, he still attacks, flamestrikes and does other abilities; also if you are too close to him, he reduces max HPs so you can't just DPS him during this phase. While it doesn't cause small constant damage, he is still shooting the raid. Compared to him just sitting there like a fool during phase 2 of the Magisters version to be beaten down; in which he is almost duo able.
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Postby Joanadark » Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:44 pm

you can actually get every buff and debuff in a 10 man raid. (if 1 healer is sufficient )


1 healer would be rough.
Doable, but rough. The healer would need to be an absolutely killer Paladin, and some fights would require potting.

Sapphrion would be interesting. the way I'd do it is beacon the tank, and have the whole raid stack on me and HL-splash the raid every other cast.

I've solo-healed patchwerk before, he's no issue. The tough part would be fights with lots of raid damage at the same time as heavy tank damage.
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Postby Sari » Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:27 am

ok i tried again and managed it with 9 ppl! but i have NO idea how to do it with 7 as someone mentioned...

http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/?c=c45 ... 0000000000

PS: just add a healer to complete the raid.
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Postby Erendis » Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:08 am

Senador wrote:
10 man != boring or lack of complexity, the phase 2 of the 5 man Kael'thas is harder than the phase 5 of the real one, and the phase4/1 equivalent I would probably give it to the 5 man as well unless there are adds still up in the 25 man.


The 25 man is harder for both versions...

In his phase 4, you have to deal with Mind Controls, the arcane disruption, managing your raid to deal with those, and you normally have to actually deal with the Shock Shield/Pyroblast, (which does three in a row instead of one) instead of trying to race DPS him before he can actually use this ability. In addition to dealing with birds/eggs/flamestrikes and his normally hard hitting fireballs.

In his phase 5, he still attacks, flamestrikes and does other abilities; also if you are too close to him, he reduces max HPs so you can't just DPS him during this phase. While it doesn't cause small constant damage, he is still shooting the raid. Compared to him just sitting there like a fool during phase 2 of the Magisters version to be beaten down; in which he is almost duo able.


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Postby Salamandra » Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:45 am

I'd say that being appropriately geared for MgT, the shield is more difficult to take down before the Pyroblast than it is for appropriately geared people for Kael in TK to take down the shield before the second Pyroblast. Thankfully, plenty of people doing Heroic MgT are overgeared.

People saying that you can, not hugely overgearing ZA, have only 9 people and still do it fine while on M'uru you could never do it with 2 or 3 people missing are somewhat neglecting that M'uru isn't supposed to be the same difficulty of encounter as any of the ZA bosses. You could do any of the TK/SSC bosses except for Kael and Vashj fine with only 20 people without overgearing it as long as people knew what they were doing.
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Postby Keion » Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:49 am

Knaughty wrote:10-man raid design can't assume that any particular class, buff or debuff is present.


They did it in BC.

Pre-curator trash assumes at least some of your dpsers are physical. I did Kara once with no physical dps at all, this part was horrible.

Surely you do not need a protection paladin for Jan'Alai if your group is overgeared, but Kara geared group will definitely need a protection paladin.

Maiden of virtue if done by bluish geared raid (the raid she is designed for) requires a paladin(sacrifice) or druid(HoT) healer and tank who is not harmed by silence.
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