10m vs 25m dungeons in WotLK - tell us about it, pls:)

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Postby Arcand » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:19 pm

Strom wrote:There are many on my server that think they will farm these 10 mans with ease on their 25 man off nights. I believe they are in for a suprise.


My hope is that, having seen a fight a few times in 10-mode, I'd be able to jump into the 25 version of the same fight without being dead weight.
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Postby kurros » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:20 pm

Splug wrote:Doesn't Zul'Aman also drop equipment that is equivalent to Kael'Thas/Vashj by item level? I think it's just scaled to be harder than TK, and on-par with early BT/Hyjal.


I'm pretty sure it's all lower ilvl than hyjal/bt gear. And from what I heard hyjal is probably easier than ZA until archimonde, but I quit before attunements were lifted and killing kael was out of the question for my guild at the time.


Splug wrote: If someone has not seen Sunwell, they really don't have any experience with "difficult" 25-man content. Even in Zul'Aman you can afford to have one player be completely dead weight; we've done 9-man clears on pre-t6-geared alts. I would not want to look at M'uru with 1-3 people offline.


You know how people 9 man ZA? Sunwell gear.

Because blizzard decided to give 25 man raids superior gear for equal effort, you need that gear for the 25 man raid. but the 10 man raid has to be designed to be possible with 10 man gear, so when you bring in the OP 25 man gear it becomes easy enough that you can underman it.

If ZA dropped ilevel225 gear and Sunwell dropped ilevel200 gear the opposite would be true- guilds with full ZA gear could under-man sunwell, because of superior gear, but ZA would require a fully stacked 10 man raid.

It's just blizzard's arbitrary decision that 25 man = better loot that causes this situation. It's going to happen in wrath again, the naxx 25 guilds will be able to 9 man the t2 10 man raid simply because they have better items.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:30 pm

kurros wrote:Yeah, I don't like that part. Initially, I'd say eh who cares if the 25 man gives slightly better loot, they are doing the "harder" version of the instance so it's okay. But then think about next tier. tier 1 naxx 10 and 25 man versions will be fine, t2 10 man will have a fatal flaw- it's going to be a lot easier for naxx 25 guilds to clear because they will have all superior gear. If it is tuned for 10 man guilds that only did naxx 10, it'll be trivial for naxx 25 guilds. And if it is tuned to be a challenge for naxx 25 guilds, it's going to be much harder for naxx 10 guilds with significantly inferior gear.


Very true, but the counterbalance is that naxx25 guilds won't care to do the next 10-man, because the gear level is identical (I'm assuming) to the stuff they got out of naxx25.

That's the separation. As long as 10-man loot is undesirable for the 25-man raiders who are geared up from the previous tier, that's at least a workable way to keep the tuning between 10s and 25s separate. All the 25-man raiders will get out of the next 10 is seeing the content, and maybe a little familiarity with the fights, though they change somewhat for the 25s anyway.
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:35 pm

Arcand wrote:It could just be that we're defining 'challenge' differently, but I'd say it has a great deal to do with the number of people even if the individual tasks required are identical.

If you take ten bright, switched-on raiders and tell them they must not move when Flame Wreath is cast or the raid blows up, and they hold still with 99.5% reliability, there is a 4.9% chance per attempt of the raid blowing up. (1 - 0.995^10)

Buff Aran's health so he lives equally long under 25-man DPS, buff his damage so he strains seven healers just as much. The 25-man raid still has an 11.8% chance of blowing up per attempt. (1-0.995^25)

(Some of the 25-raiders will, of course, announce that they have twice as much skill as the 10-raiders because they kill a boss who blows up the raid twice as often. And yet all the players are having to perform the same task, and on an individual basis they're doing it equally well.)

So if anything, the larger raids have to be more careful about the way they test the group because more mistakes are going to be made. The larger group can absorb more punishment before it loses its last healer, interruptor, dispeller or what have you, but in some ways it's potentially even more fragile than the 10.


We certainly are then. :)

My only definition of challenge is what's challenging for me. I flat-out reject wrangling more people as being describable as "challenge". That's not what it is. It's overhead. My job as a tank is not harder because 15 people are riding my threat instead of 5. My job as a healer isn't (shouldn't be) harder because I'm healing 5 out of 10 people vs 5 out of 25 people. It's just that the raid might have less chance of success because you have to lower your standards to fill more slots. That's the sort of BS I'm glad I don't have to deal with anymore, and I call it bad game design.

Here's my thought experiment:
If 10s and 25s gave the same loot, showcased the same content, and required the same amount of play quality and challenge per player (which is clearly possible), would you still rather raid with 25 than 10?

I'm sure some would, as they prefer to be part of a larger team and enjoy the interpersonal stuff. I'm sure others wouldn't, as a lot of what makes 25s "harder" is simply a point of frustration and overhead, and not part of the actual game. IMO. ;)
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Postby Splug » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:40 pm

Splug wrote:we've done 9-man clears on pre-t6-geared alts.

kurros wrote:You know how people 9 man ZA? Sunwell gear.

I'll give you sunwell experience, but I did explicitly state the characters involved did not have massively overcompensating equipment (in fact, I'm fairly certain that run didn't have much out of ssc/tk either, just a ton of badge equipment and pvp gear). We ended up only making the third chest timer, so I suppose if you're looking at it from a perspective of farming bears and having a quick/clean clear then yes, it would take more equipment. EDIT: Though, I suppose an equally quick/clean clear through 25-man content would have equivalent equipment demands to crank up enough damage to compensate for missing players.

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Postby Belloc » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:22 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:Very true, but the counterbalance is that naxx25 guilds won't care to do the next 10-man, because the gear level is identical (I'm assuming) to the stuff they got out of naxx25.

Oh, 25-man raiders will definitely do 10-mans, even if the gear is the same quality.

First of all, you're not guaranteed to get every drop you need out of 25-man Naxx, so you'll likely find upgrades in tier-8 10 mans.

Second, item level doesn't guarantee good itemization. After all, we use the 75-badge chest instead of the 100-badge chest, right? I'd wear my pocketwatch and commendation over the Hydross and Zul'jin trinkets.

Third, the set bonuses on the 10-man tier 8 might be more desirable than those on the 25-man tier 7.

And, come on, plenty of people still run Karazhan for badges every week, right?

I'm sure there will be plenty of reasons to do both.
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Postby fiorina » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:37 pm

Slamdorff wrote:Great info so far - let more flow,pls.

fiorina wrote:
Worldie wrote:Imagine a Patchwerk-like boss, and his hurtful strike, it hits for the same amount in 10 men and 25 men.


erm...
10 men HS - around 6k
25 men HS - around 16k


?

What are you referring to, Fiorina?
Please enlighten us.

Does anybody have any specific comparisons from encounters?


I am saying Hateful Strike @25 men hits for much more.

It has been said already. 25 men boss abilities hits for more, there is more adds and sometimes there is some extra ability.

25 Naxx is almost same compared to old 40 men Naxx, just some abilities/limitations/immunities are removed. Loatheb is reworked completely. Just read strategies to old Naxx (wowhead.com for example) so you can get idea what bosses do.
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Postby Joacimcans » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:46 pm

kurros wrote:While I agree with your theory craft, in practice I haven't noticed this to be the case in BC. In taking a guild through karazhan, gruuls, ssc, and tk, the thing I noticed is that the 25 man raids are MUCH more forgiving for poorly performing players. In particular some fights like lurker and solarian were trivially easy even with some really bad players, because as long as the tanks and healers did their job the rest of the raid wasn't particularly important.

On the other hand, the harder Karazhan or ZA fights I really felt like every raid spot was crucial, and you couldn't get away with giving up any of them to poor players. I mean after we out geared it Prince and Nightbane were certainly doable with 5+ good players, but ZA in particular I'd never dream of taking in a healer with 700 + healing, while such a player did fine in SSC.


I see a real flaw in your comparison here and that is from what i am understanding you are saying fights in kara/ZA are harder with under geared people, but on fights like lurker/solarian you could get away with having some poorer geared people. IMO that is like comparing apples to oranges. If you are going to do a comparison do it justice and compare Prince/Zul'Jin to Vash/Kael having people die on those fights wasnt as forgiving if it was a DPS then thier side tended to leak elementals to the top or the striders werent getting dpsed down fast enough or on Kael the weapons wouldn't die quick enough or you tank would have to eat a pyro.

In a more drastic comparison I think Archimonde would be alot easier if it were a 10 man because if you have ever done archimonde with 25 people you know it only takes one person fucking up to wipe the raid. I mean while one person dieing isn't a guaranteed wipe we have lived through a few where someone died it makes it alot harder because you have to rely on 24 other people to not fuck up even if you do your job perfectly.
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Postby kurros » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:53 pm

Joacimcans wrote:I see a real flaw in your comparison here and that is from what i am understanding you are saying fights in kara/ZA are harder with under geared people, but on fights like lurker/solarian you could get away with having some poorer geared people. IMO that is like comparing apples to oranges. If you are going to do a comparison do it justice and compare Prince/Zul'Jin to Vash/Kael


Lurker, Solarian, VR, etc already drop loot that is superior to even prince loot. ilevel 128 from 25 man bosses vs ilevel 125 from prince. Kael/Vashj SHOULD be much harder, because the loot is that much better, but these boss are easier and drop better items.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby majiben » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:56 pm

What's the difference from perspective of tanks? How many are needed? Are there more targets to tank? What's the difference for tanks between 10 mans and 25 mans?
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Postby Splug » Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:00 pm

Majiben wrote:What's the difference from perspective of tanks? How many are needed? Are there more targets to tank? What's the difference for tanks between 10 mans and 25 mans?
Bosses with adds spawn more adds. Patchwerk hits hard enough that it's worth having two offtanks. Loatheb is... still a one-tank encounter. But in general, Naxx 10 encourages either two tanks or one tank and one tank-capable dps, and Naxx 25 encourages three full-time tanks.

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Postby Joacimcans » Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:07 pm

Sorry i dont know a whole lot about Ilevels but the way i under stood it was that ZA was more tuned for T5 and that kara was more tuned to Mag/Gruul.

To humor me can you list me the ilevels of loot off of VR/Solarian and then list me ilevels of items off of Hex Lord Malacrass
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Postby Joacimcans » Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:10 pm

So prince drops http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28773 ilevel 125

and Gruul drops http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28794 ilevel 125

0 ilevel difference

Hexlord drops http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33388 ilevel 132 from a 10man

Leothras drops http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30095 ilevel 134 from a 25man

2 ilevel differences

Zul'jin drops http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33468 ilevel 138

Vash drops http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30108 ilevel 141

Kael drops http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29988 ilevel 141

So 3 ilevel difference

maybe this means the ilevels for 10 mans is just getting slighly a greater increase from 25mans as progression continues to grow. I suppose we will see with WotlK comes out if this trend continues.
Last edited by Joacimcans on Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Splug » Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:14 pm

As a rule of thumb, all entities in an instance drop the same ilevel loot, except the last boss who drops it at the ilevel appropriate to the next instance.

So it's roughly equal to T5 content (2 ilevels behind), and most likely Zul'jin would drop loot two ilevels behind Kael'thas.

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Postby Belloc » Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:40 pm

Joacimcans wrote:So prince drops http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28773 ilevel 125

and Gruul drops http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28794 ilevel 125

0 ilevel difference

Hexlord drops http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33388 ilevel 132 from a 10man

Leothras drops http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30095 ilevel 134 from a 25man

2 ilevel differences

Zul'jin drops http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33468 ilevel 138

Vash drops http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30108 ilevel 141

Kael drops http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29988 ilevel 141

So 3 ilevel difference

maybe this means the ilevels for 10 mans is just getting slighly a greater increase from 25mans as progression continues to grow. I suppose we will see with WotlK comes out if this trend continues.

Your post was filled with special cases. First of all, most non-set SSC/TK items are iLevel 128. Weapons, for some reason, have a higher iLevel in SSC, kind of like how rings in BT have a higher iLevel than the rest of the gear.

Loot in BC was wildly inconsistent. It's a safe bet that we won't be seeing such silliness in WotLK. If I remember correctly, there are no item groups in WotLK raids that have higher item levels. I could be mistaken, but I think I'm remembering correctly.
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