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what AD should have been

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Postby Norrath » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:03 pm

kurros wrote:Come on now, this sort of argument is pointless.

"I think it would be OP"

"I don't think it would be"

"Well, it would be!"

Neither of us have tanked with such a talent on a paladin, so it's all speculation either way. Maybe it would be OP, but it could always be nerfed. I'd just much rather have an ability that will reliably trigger, even if it was severely nerfed. For example they could change the 3 seconds of 90% DR to 3 seconds of 25% DR, and I would still prefer it over AD. They could change the 10% health to 5% health, and I would still prefer it. They could increase the cooldown from 1 minute to 10 minutes. There are plenty of ways to nerf the ability if it ends up being too strong.

I just want an ability that can be relied upon.


It prevents you from dying (and without losing aggro like Divine Shield).

If you honestly cannot see how that is overpowered when given to a tank, even on a cooldown, I don't know how I can explain it to you.
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Postby kurros » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:12 pm

Norrath wrote:
It prevents you from dying (and without losing aggro like Divine Shield).
.


It prevents you from dying in some situations. It's not a guaranteed survival. Parrying also prevents you from dying in some situations, and blocking prevents you from dying in some situations. That is not a valid argument :P
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:15 pm

kurros wrote:
Norrath wrote:
It prevents you from dying (and without losing aggro like Divine Shield).
.


It prevents you from dying in some situations. It's not a guaranteed survival. Parrying also prevents you from dying in some situations, and blocking prevents you from dying in some situations. That is not a valid argument :P
There's a difference there. Cheat Death always prevents you from dieing to that hit and gives you your own health pool again for 3 seconds.

So, suppose UGLYFACE beats you for 20% of your hp. Cheat death guarantees you won't die to the next hit, plus the next 4 or so hits within 3 seconds.

No matter the cooldown, that kind of hability on a tank is just tooooooooo powerful to rely on. Rogues die with it because they aren't massively healed by 3+ healers at once. Tanks are.
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Postby Arcand » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:16 pm

kurros wrote:It prevents you from dying in some situations. It's not a guaranteed survival.


When it activates, doesn't it do exactly that? It turns "hit that would have killed you" into "hit which does not kill you". You can't argue that it's not a powerful effect simply because it does nothing when it's on cooldown.

You could argue that it's a reasonably powerful effect because it spends x% of the time on cooldown, but I don't think that's what you're saying.
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Postby Splug » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:19 pm

99% passive mitigation does not explicitly prevent you from dieing either. That does not mean it's a balanced ability. However, at the end of the day this is a fairly subjective argument, and I don't see a good way to prove either side explicitly wrong. If it gets implemented, I'll worry about crunching numbers for it. Until then, I too want a pony.

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Postby Flex » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:21 pm

Kelaan wrote:I have to agree that the "guaranteed save" aspect is pretty OP


Well timed Guardian Spirits ftw.
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Postby kurros » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:24 pm

Arcand wrote:
When it activates, doesn't it do exactly that? It turns "hit that would have killed you" into "hit which does not kill you". You can't argue that it's not a powerful effect simply because it does nothing when it's on cooldown.


It prevents 1 hit from killing you, but you could easily die .5 sec later from the next hit. Some posters think that wrath bosses won't use specials anymore or something, but I'll believe that when I see it- right now I am working on the assumption it will be like BC for example with Mag hitting you with a regular hit and a cleave instantly after, or nightbane hitting you with a physical hit and breath immediately after. It happens a lot. Surviving one hit is no guarantee of surviving the encounter.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:26 pm

kurros wrote:
Arcand wrote:
When it activates, doesn't it do exactly that? It turns "hit that would have killed you" into "hit which does not kill you". You can't argue that it's not a powerful effect simply because it does nothing when it's on cooldown.


It prevents 1 hit from killing you, but you could easily die .5 sec later from the next hit. Some posters think that wrath bosses won't use specials anymore or something, but I'll believe that when I see it- right now I am working on the assumption it will be like BC for example with Mag hitting you with a regular hit and a cleave instantly after, or nightbane hitting you with a physical hit and breath immediately after. It happens a lot. Surviving one hit is no guarantee of surviving the encounter.
The hits within 3 seconds would still have to go through 10 times the hp you have at the moment it procd. That's a LOT.
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Re: what AD should have been

Postby Noradin » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:27 pm

Sabindeus wrote:f a boss one shots you, then there's a problem with you trying to tank him in the first place. No one's trying to balance around that, the problem with this ability arises when the boss CAN'T one shot you.

I don't see how this is balanced on ANY cooldown, really.


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Postby Splug » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:31 pm

There's a significant difference between a passive, auto-activated ability and a proactively used short-duration ability. EDIT: Which implies if you had to cast Ardent Defender a few seconds before a killing blow for it to do anything (consuming its cooldown whether it was needed or not), it would be balanced. Having it auto-fire is significantly different, simply because if you're going to assume everyone has absolutely perfect decisionmaking and knowledge of the upcoming hits, then you have to question why the healers aren't using that knowledge to apply perfect healing the instant after the tank is hit, thus preventing him from ever having more than one hit's worth of damage taken.

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Postby Sabindeus » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:34 pm

Splug wrote:There's a significant difference between a passive, auto-activated ability and a proactively used short-duration ability.

-Splug


Also a difference between an ability of a healer and an ability of a tank.

But yeah Splug has got it, the big difference here is that you want it to save you whenever you die, whereas Guardian Spirit will only save you if you were to die in the 10s that it's up.

Now if you wanted an activated ability that lasted 10s on a 3 minute cooldown, and saved you if you died in those 10s, I could see that not being OP. I don't think I'd want it around for other reasons, such as overlap with a 51 point priest talent, but I could see it not being OP.
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Postby Sabindeus » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:36 pm

well apparently we're all just going to say the same things a few seconds after each other today!
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Postby Sabindeus » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:38 pm

kurros wrote:
Arcand wrote:
When it activates, doesn't it do exactly that? It turns "hit that would have killed you" into "hit which does not kill you". You can't argue that it's not a powerful effect simply because it does nothing when it's on cooldown.


It prevents 1 hit from killing you, but you could easily die .5 sec later from the next hit. Some posters think that wrath bosses won't use specials anymore or something, but I'll believe that when I see it- right now I am working on the assumption it will be like BC for example with Mag hitting you with a regular hit and a cleave instantly after, or nightbane hitting you with a physical hit and breath immediately after. It happens a lot. Surviving one hit is no guarantee of surviving the encounter.


IMO go tank a wrath boss.

Also if Mag hits me with a regular hit and a cleave immediately after, I wouldn't even proc AD. :P

Seriously, they changed the way they tune raid bosses in WotLK. The cockblockers of old are no longer cockblocky in the same way of just outright killing tanks. If you are unable to go see this on beta for yourself then please trust the word of those of us who are.
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Postby kurros » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:38 pm

Snake-Aes wrote:The hits within 3 seconds would still have to go through 10 times the hp you have at the moment it procd. That's a LOT.


No it wouldn't. Read the thread, I went over this already :P

The ability can be balanced however it needs to be balanced. The DR could be 90% as it is for rogues, or it could be 50%, or 25%, or 10%. Maybe the ability would be too strong if they just gave it to use unchanged, but it can be tweaked to be arbitrarily as strong or as weak as it needs to be.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:40 pm

Sabindeus wrote:well apparently we're all just going to say the same things a few seconds after each other today!
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