what AD should have been

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Postby kurros » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:32 am

Snake-Aes wrote:You certainly need to read more raid parses. The number of times one's hp goes below 35%(triggering commendation) is impressive.


That doesn't trigger AD. AD is only triggered if you get hit while below 35%. If you dip below 35% and then get healed back above 35% before you get hit again, AD isn't doing anything for you but your commendation will trigger.

Even in the situations where you drop below 35% and then get hit again before getting healed, in many of the AD won't matter. You drop to 5% hp, then get hit again, you are going to die regardless of the damage reduction :P

Snake-Aes wrote:Said certain situations are so small on design that they truly don't matter. If said "OPness" mattered, it would be toned down. Therefore it can be ignored in the situations we want it to work.


What are you basing this on? You think blizzard doesn't care about 5 mans or pvp? I could see AD getting nerfed if it turns out to be too strong in a 36/35 holy/prot arena build, arena use seems to be the quickest way to get anything nerfed.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Re: what AD should have been

Postby Splug » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:32 am

kurros wrote:Either it's leapfrogged, and worthless, or it's not leapfrogged, and overpowered. That is a terrible design for a talent, talents should not randomly work or not work, they should be a little bit more consistent.
There are a lot of "chance on hit," "chance on crit," "chance on ability use," or even "chance on damage taken" talents. Critical hits and avoidance are probability and chance-based mechanics by definition.

And yes, tanks with (pre-nerf) cheat death would be horrifically overpowered. At 90% damage reduction, that means 10% of your max hp is equal to your normal effective health. The boss that could normally three-shot you from full can now three-shot you from 10%. You're really looking at a tank that has to die twice within one minute to die at all, which is a huge advantage.

As for rogues dieing or not dieing: Cheat Death currently scales to resilience. The terribles in battlegrounds have low resilience because their gear is bad, and about 70% of the high-ranked rogues in arenas use 4xt6 + 4xs4 to mooch both set bonuses, followed by pve weapons, one pve trinket, and occasionally pve rings/necklace. The net result is that most rogues you run into are going to have low resil, and it causes cheat death to be very lackluster. Those that actually have high resil require locking down healers for the 3 seconds, because killing someone at 90% DR means hacking through a full health bar all over again.

-Splug

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Last edited by Splug on Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: what AD should have been

Postby kurros » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:40 am

Splug wrote:And yes, tanks with (pre-nerf) cheat death would be horrifically overpowered. At 90% damage reduction, that means 10% of your max hp is equal to your normal effective health. The boss that could normally three-shot you from full can now three-shot you from 10%.


Yes, but a boss that one shots you is still going to kill you with cheat death up, it's just going to take it 2 hits. It's not going to let you tank something untankable, like razuvious.

Splug wrote:You're really looking at a tank that has to die twice within one minute to die at all, which is a huge advantage.


See above. This is a video game, not a house, anything can be changed easily. If it's OP at 3 seconds of 90% mitigation, reduce it to 50% or 25% mitigation. If it's too strong with a 1 minute cooldown, give it a 3 minute or 5 minute or 15 minute cooldown.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Re: what AD should have been

Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:43 am

kurros wrote:
Splug wrote:And yes, tanks with (pre-nerf) cheat death would be horrifically overpowered. At 90% damage reduction, that means 10% of your max hp is equal to your normal effective health. The boss that could normally three-shot you from full can now three-shot you from 10%.


Yes, but a boss that one shots you is still going to kill you with cheat death up, it's just going to take it 2 hits. It's not going to let you tank something untankable, like razuvious.
Hm, then what are you complaining about? You say situations where AD is useless are constant, but you also say situations where CD are op don't exist. One kinda cancels the other.

Fact: Everyone seems to ignore or supervalue traits of the game that simply are there or not.
For example my commendation example: We DO dip under 35% often, that cannot be denied.
AD is useless if the boss is capable of 2-shotting or 3-shotting you. Thing is.. how often does that happen at level 80? Give me an accurate answer for that and then we can say how much AD is or not useful.
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Re: what AD should have been

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:43 am

kurros wrote:
Splug wrote:And yes, tanks with (pre-nerf) cheat death would be horrifically overpowered. At 90% damage reduction, that means 10% of your max hp is equal to your normal effective health. The boss that could normally three-shot you from full can now three-shot you from 10%.


Yes, but a boss that one shots you is still going to kill you with cheat death up, it's just going to take it 2 hits. It's not going to let you tank something untankable, like razuvious.

Splug wrote:You're really looking at a tank that has to die twice within one minute to die at all, which is a huge advantage.


See above. This is a video game, not a house, anything can be changed easily. If it's OP at 3 seconds of 90% mitigation, reduce it to 50% or 25% mitigation. If it's too strong with a 1 minute cooldown, give it a 3 minute or 5 minute or 15 minute cooldown.


If a boss one shots you, then there's a problem with you trying to tank him in the first place. No one's trying to balance around that, the problem with this ability arises when the boss CAN'T one shot you.

I don't see how this is balanced on ANY cooldown, really. To be a complete smartass I could just say that the raid could wait the X minutes of the cooldown between attempts on the boss and thus have their OP life saving ability every time they try it. Changing the mitigation percentage doesn't help the fact that the ability is guaranteed to save your life no matter what. That's not balanced no matter what you do.
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Re: what AD should have been

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:44 am

Snake-Aes wrote:
kurros wrote:
Splug wrote:And yes, tanks with (pre-nerf) cheat death would be horrifically overpowered. At 90% damage reduction, that means 10% of your max hp is equal to your normal effective health. The boss that could normally three-shot you from full can now three-shot you from 10%.


Yes, but a boss that one shots you is still going to kill you with cheat death up, it's just going to take it 2 hits. It's not going to let you tank something untankable, like razuvious.
Hm, then what are you complaining about? You say situations where AD is useless are constant, but you also say situations where CD are op don't exist. One kinda cancels the other.

Fact: Everyone seems to ignore or supervalue traits of the game that simply are there or not.
For example my commendation example: We DO dip under 35% often, that cannot be denied.
AD is useless if the boss is capable of 2-shotting or 3-shotting you. Thing is.. how often does that happen at level 80? Give me an accurate answer for that and then we can say how much AD is or not useful.


The closest example I can come up with is Patchwerk and even that's more like a 5 shot assuming worst case avoidance in decent gear.
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Postby Kelaan » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:02 pm

I have to agree that the "guaranteed save" aspect is pretty OP, and even more so with the damge reduction afterward.

Tanks that aren't tanking stuff-they-shouldn't-be (with the exception of Sunwell) tend to die when healers screw up, or the tank screws up. Tank screwup is reduced now that we don't have crushes. If we had Cheat Death (or even just the "once a minute, fatal blows don't kill you"), that would require your healers to fuck up twice a minute to even give you a chance to die.

THAT is what's overpowered. Adding a damage reduction proc afterward is icing, as is the fact that it's automatic.

OP-ness:
- once per minute, you're effectively invulnerable at the instant it matters most.
- You don't have to be proactive, unlike other tank emergency-buttons
- That + Divine Protection means some hefty damage reduction.

I'd prefer if AD were simply fixed/changed so that the portion of damage which leapfrogs the threshold is reduced. e.g., if you are at 11k of 20k health, and take a 12k hit, you'd take 1k + (11k reduced by AD).
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Re: what AD should have been

Postby kurros » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:03 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
The closest example I can come up with is Patchwerk and even that's more like a 5 shot assuming worst case avoidance in decent gear.


Wrath isn't out yet. Nobody knows for sure what is going to be buffed or nerfed from current beta specs.

In BC, pre-nerf kazzak, doombringer and mag could all 3 shot tanks with gear that would otherwise be considered on par. Gruul as well, with sufficient growths. I'd be very suprised if no wrath boss can hit that hard, if that is true than tank healing is really going to be trivial. Tank healing trivial, tank threat trivial, is every single fight just going to be a dps race? I tend to doubt it, I rather suspect that blizzard will tune things a little bit tighter.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Re: what AD should have been

Postby kurros » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:05 pm

Sabindeus wrote: Changing the mitigation percentage doesn't help the fact that the ability is guaranteed to save your life no matter what. That's not balanced no matter what you do.


Except, it's not. You could easily eat a hit that should kill you, get knocked to 5%, and then die on a special that occurs .2 seconds later.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Re: what AD should have been

Postby Conaan! » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:06 pm

kurros wrote:
In BC, pre-nerf kazzak, doombringer and mag could all 3 shot tanks with gear that would otherwise be considered on par. Gruul as well, with sufficient growths. I'd be very suprised if no wrath boss can hit that hard, if that is true than tank healing is really going to be trivial. Tank healing trivial, tank threat trivial, is every single fight just going to be a dps race? I tend to doubt it, I rather suspect that blizzard will tune things a little bit tighter.


you really are right, personally im hoping gluth will spawn zombies at same rate at 60 from the 3 grates, but then every 30 seconds 5 undead murlocs spawn, that use almost the same abilities as the adds that kelthuzad summons at 30%

dps races arent fun unless there are adds to be dealt with, then its fun
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Postby Splug » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:12 pm

Hah... what would be hillarious would be stopping at 1hp and autofiring divine shield.

Then we can just use the rogue's cheat death next!

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Re: what AD should have been

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:25 pm

kurros wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
The closest example I can come up with is Patchwerk and even that's more like a 5 shot assuming worst case avoidance in decent gear.


Wrath isn't out yet. Nobody knows for sure what is going to be buffed or nerfed from current beta specs.

In BC, pre-nerf kazzak, doombringer and mag could all 3 shot tanks with gear that would otherwise be considered on par. Gruul as well, with sufficient growths. I'd be very suprised if no wrath boss can hit that hard, if that is true than tank healing is really going to be trivial. Tank healing trivial, tank threat trivial, is every single fight just going to be a dps race? I tend to doubt it, I rather suspect that blizzard will tune things a little bit tighter.


I'm pretty sure they're done tuning Naxx 10. :/

Just because tanks aren't getting 2 shot doesn't suddenly make healing trivial. Remember, you can't downrank anymore. The new healing challenge that I have found is combatting the Overhealing monster.
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Re: what AD should have been

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:26 pm

kurros wrote:
Sabindeus wrote: Changing the mitigation percentage doesn't help the fact that the ability is guaranteed to save your life no matter what. That's not balanced no matter what you do.


Except, it's not. You could easily eat a hit that should kill you, get knocked to 5%, and then die on a special that occurs .2 seconds later.


Or, you could NOT. And it's that case that makes the ability overpowered.

if every boss in the game had specials that hit 0.2 seconds after their auto attack swings, maybe you could call it balanced. Maybe. Probably not. But the point is that not every boss has crazy kill you dead specials.
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Postby Splug » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:40 pm

In most cases, those specials also reset the swing timer, preventing the auto-cleave-auto cycle. That also was not always the case, however they've been taking steps to prevent things like the Gluth Decim-LOLBYE combo.

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Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:02 pm

Seems like the best way to handle it would be to have it give you a buff for a couple of seconds when you reach 35% health or below that simply refreshes itself a second or two before it ends as long as your health remains that low. I didn't read everything in the thread, so I apologize if this has been said.

I feel that Cheat Death's mechanic of negating a killing blow would be a little too powerful in the hands of a conventional tank, even with a 1 minute cooldown due to the fact that it's fairly uncommon for a boss to spike a tank to death more than once per minute provided he has the appropriate gear for the encounter, and his healers aren't asleep. Some special bosses obviously have abilities that go against this, such as Mag Cleaving your face in during the roof collapse, or Gruul growing 20 times.
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