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what AD should have been

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Re: what AD should have been

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:29 am

Snake-Aes wrote:
kurros wrote:AD seems to be the stronger talent, except when it's leapfrogged. Do you think AD is fine just because it is worthless in raids? I'd rather they just remove it, I don't really want to spend 5 talent points on a 5man tanking talent.
Hm, since when it's worthless in raids?
1% mitigation, indeed, but it's kinda there when you need it the most, yanno? I'll try to talk _Chloe into redesigning the ad damage mitigation algorithm to not bother with ad mitigation on the last row of hits within AD in that you died. YOu'll see that it's not much smaller, it's still roughly 1% overall, which represents those 30% when you need it the most.


That should be easier now, since the hit that kills you will be flagged with Overkill damage.
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Re: what AD should have been

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:30 am

kurros wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
kurros wrote:AD: can be leap frogged
CD: will activate before you die every time
CD superior.


THIS IS THE BROKEN PART.


This is what I don't get. So you think AD is horribly OP when it isn't leapfrogged?

What exactly is the benefit when it *is* leapfrogged? Zero.


And now to address this point:

If AD were not leapfroggable, it would be an effective additional (0.35*0.3 = 0.105) 10.5% extra health, with an additional benefit of increasing the effectiveness of healing on you by 30% under 35% total health.

is that overpowered?

HELL YES.
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Postby unboundarea52 » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:33 am

What AD should have been is this:

When you are at 50% health or below, will reduce all damage taken by 25%

It creates a larger margin, that in MOST situations will not be leapfrogged, and by reducing the reduction in damage (25% was arbitrary, it could be lower or higher depending on testing) it balances out.

Basically the biggest complaint with AD is that it CAN and frequently does get leapfrogged, at 50% health it brings up (IMHO significantly) the amount of times that it would activate, and to compensate, you can bring down the amount of damage it reduces.

Just thoughts anyways
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Postby Alberich » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:33 am

Plus, I've had strings of hits in my Mag pugs right during the start of the released phase where AD saved my ass like 5 times back to back. AD death avoided, get a heal, avoided again, heal, avoided again, healed, etc etc until I get a few more healers on me.
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Re: what AD should have been

Postby kurros » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:03 am

Sabindeus wrote:And now to address this point:

If AD were not leapfroggable, it would be an effective additional (0.35*0.3 = 0.105) 10.5% extra health, with an additional benefit of increasing the effectiveness of healing on you by 30% under 35% total health.

is that overpowered?

HELL YES.


And that is not what I suggested.

Cheat Death has a 1 minute cooldown, only gives effective health for 3 seconds, and if you actually purposely trigger it to make healing easier you are almost certainly going to mess up and kill yourself instead sooner or later. It's not the same as an AD that can't be leapfrogged, although there are similarities.



Your point seems to be that if AD is not leapfrogged, it is OP. But if it is leapfrogged, it is useless. So you think it's fine to have a useless talent?

Either it's leapfrogged, and worthless, or it's not leapfrogged, and overpowered. That is a terrible design for a talent, talents should not randomly work or not work, they should be a little bit more consistent.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:04 am

The flaw in your perception of AD, kurros, is that AD is not useless.
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Postby Norrath » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:06 am

kurros wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:uh, no?

Because that's not HORRIBLY overpowered for a tank to have, amirite?


It's very similar to a non-leapfrogged AD, except it has a 1 minute cooldown added as a penalty. I don't think it's horribly OP, no.


You might not think it, but it would be.
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Re: what AD should have been

Postby Kelaan » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:09 am

Fridmarr wrote:That should be easier now, since the hit that kills you will be flagged with Overkill damage.


Can anyone link to a brief explanation of what "overkill damage" is?
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Re: what AD should have been

Postby Norrath » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:10 am

Kelaan wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:That should be easier now, since the hit that kills you will be flagged with Overkill damage.


Can anyone link to a brief explanation of what "overkill damage" is?


Any damage you take beyond what brings you to zero.

So if you have 10 health and take 50 damage, it will say you take 40 overkill damage.
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Re: what AD should have been

Postby dmok » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:11 am

Kelaan wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:That should be easier now, since the hit that kills you will be flagged with Overkill damage.


Can anyone link to a brief explanation of what "overkill damage" is?

If your target has 400 life left, and you hit him for 1000 your combat log will report

You damage <target> for 400 Damage (600 Overkill).

It is exactly what it sounds like. It is damage that was not necessary for the kill and is, infact, overkill.
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Postby kurros » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:18 am

Snake-Aes wrote:The flaw in your perception of AD, kurros, is that AD is not useless.


I think it's a matter of opinion really.

Will it kick in and save you when A) you are vastly overgeared and B) your healers are incredibly inept and let you dip below 35% hp constantly? Yes, it certainly will.

Will it kick in and save you when you are under geared or merely adequately geared for the fight in question, where the boss hits you for 40% of your hp on each attack? Probably not, IMO. Or maybe it will 1 time in 20, but is that really worth spending 5 talent points? I guess it is if you don't have any other place to put them, but it seems like a poor investment to me.


The other issue is the current design of AD is VERY STRONG when you do have gear such that the biggest hits you take are 5% of your max hp. It's almost too good in those situations, although they are rare in raids it's sort of annoying to have a talent that is simultaneously overpowered in some situations and virtually useless in others.


Norrath wrote:
kurros wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:uh, no?

Because that's not HORRIBLY overpowered for a tank to have, amirite?


It's very similar to a non-leapfrogged AD, except it has a 1 minute cooldown added as a penalty. I don't think it's horribly OP, no.


You might not think it, but it would be.


Come on now, this sort of argument is pointless.

"I think it would be OP"

"I don't think it would be"

"Well, it would be!"

Neither of us have tanked with such a talent on a paladin, so it's all speculation either way. Maybe it would be OP, but it could always be nerfed. I'd just much rather have an ability that will reliably trigger, even if it was severely nerfed. For example they could change the 3 seconds of 90% DR to 3 seconds of 25% DR, and I would still prefer it over AD. They could change the 10% health to 5% health, and I would still prefer it. They could increase the cooldown from 1 minute to 10 minutes. There are plenty of ways to nerf the ability if it ends up being too strong.

I just want an ability that can be relied upon.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Re: what AD should have been

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:20 am

kurros wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:And now to address this point:

If AD were not leapfroggable, it would be an effective additional (0.35*0.3 = 0.105) 10.5% extra health, with an additional benefit of increasing the effectiveness of healing on you by 30% under 35% total health.

is that overpowered?

HELL YES.


And that is not what I suggested.

Cheat Death has a 1 minute cooldown, only gives effective health for 3 seconds, and if you actually purposely trigger it to make healing easier you are almost certainly going to mess up and kill yourself instead sooner or later. It's not the same as an AD that can't be leapfrogged, although there are similarities.



Your point seems to be that if AD is not leapfrogged, it is OP. But if it is leapfrogged, it is useless. So you think it's fine to have a useless talent?

Either it's leapfrogged, and worthless, or it's not leapfrogged, and overpowered. That is a terrible design for a talent, talents should not randomly work or not work, they should be a little bit more consistent.


You asked this question:
This is what I don't get. So you think AD is horribly OP when it isn't leapfrogged?


That is what I was replying to, showing how AD would, in fact, be horribly OP when it isn't leapfroggable.

When it is NOT leapfroggable, it's not overpowered because it's not guaranteed provide its benefit. You see?
Last edited by Sabindeus on Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:22 am

kurros wrote:
Snake-Aes wrote:The flaw in your perception of AD, kurros, is that AD is not useless.


I think it's a matter of opinion really.

Will it kick in and save you when A) you are vastly overgeared and B) your healers are incredibly inept and let you dip below 35% hp constantly? Yes, it certainly will.

You certainly need to read more raid parses. The number of times one's hp goes below 35%(triggering commendation) is impressive.
kurros wrote:Will it kick in and save you when you are under geared or merely adequately geared for the fight in question, where the boss hits you for 40% of your hp on each attack? Probably not, IMO. Or maybe it will 1 time in 20, but is that really worth spending 5 talent points? I guess it is if you don't have any other place to put them, but it seems like a poor investment to me.

40%, surely not. Thing is: Even today, it happens to save you. With the new raiding scheme, the % of hp tanks tend to lose per swing seems to raise on a smoother curve, 3/4 of this assumption you are making is simply invalid(just like mine) until you actually see the content that's coming. In naxx, AD is certainly valuable.
kurros wrote:
The other issue is the current design of AD is VERY STRONG when you do have gear such that the biggest hits you take are 5% of your max hp. It's almost too good in those situations, although they are rare in raids it's sort of annoying to have a talent that is simultaneously overpowered in some situations and virtually useless in others.

Said certain situations are so small on design that they truly don't matter. If said "OPness" mattered, it would be toned down. Therefore it can be ignored in the situations we want it to work.
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Postby Sabindeus » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:26 am

To try and address your suggestion in a more direct manner because I guess this isn't perfectly clear to everyone:

Cheat Death has a 1 minute cooldown, only gives effective health for 3 seconds, and if you actually purposely trigger it to make healing easier you are almost certainly going to mess up and kill yourself instead sooner or later. It's not the same as an AD that can't be leapfrogged, although there are similarities.


1 minute cooldown survivability tools are fine. Everyone but Paladins have one. But none of them actually explicitly prevent death. If a Warrior pops Shield Block for extra mitigation he does not have a guarantee that he won't die. Additionally, 90% mitigation even for 3 seconds is entirely unparalleled, even on a 1 minute cooldown. No one has that kind of an oh-shit-button. It would not be fair to the other tank classes if we got something like that.

Basically the reason it's overpowered is because it is so far above and beyond what any other tanks get, in addition to pretty much trivializing any fight where the purpose is to challenge the tank's DR and the healer's burst capacity.
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:29 am

Well, I think considering the raid healing spam, you'd almost always get healed up if a cheat death ability proc'd, unless your healers were dead/dying too. So, I'd speculate that cheat death would be a near guaranteed main tank save available once a minute. To me that seems like it would be too powerful.
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