Tanking in Kaelthas

A'lar, Void Reaver, Solarian, Kael'thas

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Tanking in Kaelthas

Postby Worldie » Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:07 pm

Ok our guild finally killed Solarian and Al'Ar last week, so we're heading Kael'thas this one.

I'm supposed to be in the "progression setup" for the fight most likely, and probably i'll have the phoenix-tanking job, i've read the tactics and watched some videos. I've had a search on this forum but still have some questions:

1) Is there any advisor that is better tanked by me instead of by a warrior in P1?
2) Same of 1, but in P3.
3) Is there the possibility to AoE tank the weapons? If yes, which ones and what stats should i stack? (stamina/avoidance/spelldamage/block)
4) I don't have Avenger Shield actually since i'm using the Sanctity Aura build, is it worth to respec for it in this fight or i can stay like i am?

Thanks for any answer, any other advice is welcome too.
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Postby Jeslena » Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:33 pm

Only adviser you'd probably be able to tank is the engineer. Also if you get the toy debuff you can Divine Shield out of it, but I'd save bubble until he is almost dead and no other tanks or important people get the debuff after you otherwise you have to wait anyways and you just wasted your bubble.

As for weapons, I doubt you can tank all of them, but 2 to 3 is definitely doable. Weapons you probably won't be AE tanking include the bow and ax. Shield, dagger, mace and maybe staff could be AE tanked, though you might have problems moving the staff around. Most strategies have tanking picking up 1-2 weapons anyways cause you need enough dps to beat the encounter so you can't have a single tank for every weapon. I think block might be better for the daggers and armor and avoidance better for the ax, but I usually just wear my usual gear despite whatever weapon I am tanking.

Phase 3, you can tank the engineer again, but there is no real advantage over a warrior tank unless you only have 2 warriors. It's pretty hard to get the shield down in p2 so a warrior needs to tank the fearing adviser and the other warrior needs to be ready to pick up Kael. This again depends on your kill order. We usually kill engineer/darkener then any remaining weapons then Lord and Grand Astromancer.

You don't need Avenger Shield, but it is nice if you need to bubble and cancel. You can get the Darkener to stop coming this way since if you are tanking something else, it is sometimes hard to move out of the way.

We've been working on the encounter for a couple nights now, but dps keeps slacking halfway through the fight. It's a pretty cool fight, but some parts just take too long.
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Postby Atreidies » Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:34 pm

Tanking 2 weapons at once is doable, and as was mentioned before, the Axe/Bow/Staff are pretty out of the question for that. I would also highly recommend against the sword being one of your tanking targets unless you're a dwarf as the rend can get pretty nasty, but if your healing can deal with it then you should be a-ok to multi-tank 2-3 weapons, especially the shield as if you only put out threat via Consecrate/Holy Shield you're not going to take the reflective damage from hitting it.

As for advisors, if you have Fear Ward available you can tank Sanguinar but there's no compelling reasoning towards it since in p3 you probably will not have a warrior available most of the time for him and you'll likely have 2 healers at the most on you and TC/Demo make a difference there. Telonicus is fine to tank as well and unless you have a spare prot warrior that can argue his 6% better spell damage mitigation then there's no reason for you not to tank him. But, as Jes mentioned, the shield generally does not die until p4 and since you can generate threat on the shield without taking any additional damage from it's reflective effect it makes sense for you to stay on the shield until it bites the dust and lighten the healing load so that another healer can pull double duty, the Telonicus healer generally keeps his tank and myself up at the same time.
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Postby Cakes » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:24 am

A couple things that I've learned in our 2 weeks of learning fights on him. AoE tanking is possible, but not necessarily advised. A lot of our first attempts were with 3 tanks to try and get more dps out, and it's just not a good idea. It puts a lot of stress on your healer, especially if you have the shield, another weapon, and an advisor on you all at once.

There are hundreds of different ways to do this fight, and the order in which you kill adds is important. However, you should find an order fairly quickly that suits your guild and helps maximize dps.

As Atreidies mentioned, the sword can be particularly nasty if you are tanking that and something else. If it's the sword by itself, it's not overly hard. Worst comes to worst, you can stun the sword and let the rend wear off.
The shield will stick to you through consecrate and holy shield, as long as it's not being focus fired. Indirect agro will not be enough to hold the shield on you as dps lays into it.
The staff dies so quickly, we never have a tank on it. Usually 10 seconds into p2, this thing is dead.
The axe is best offtanked to the side. There are strats where you can bring it close enough to receive aoe, but that requires more thinking by dps and not running into it while transitioning.
The daggers are trivial, and the mace can be stunlocked.

Perhaps the greatest tip that I can give you while tanking in p2: move weapons off of dead weapons. Suprisingly, these things are hard to loot and having a tank and several dps on top of it complicates matters. You want people to spend as little time looting/equipping as possible, so make it easy for them. Also, don't tank anything on the stairs of Kael's platforms. I don't know how many attempts I've had to call because we downed the shield only to have it disappear under the stairs.
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Postby Worldie » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:30 am

You say that the passive threat is not enough to hold the shield, what if while tanking whatsoever with it (probably daggers i guess) i have some Judgement macro on that? I have 500ish spelldamage unbuffed in threat gear (+290 from alar trinket procs) + Sanctity Aura.
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Postby Darus » Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:26 am

hey, me and my guild are currently also working on KT. So far weve mastered p3 and working on taming p4.

As for the advisors, sanguinar and telonicus can both be tanked, if you dont have an fw in the raid go for telonicus. If thats the case remember to bring some free action potions for the remote toy debuff.

In phase 2 i tank two of the weapons (cosmic infuser and slicer) its simple by then, go position yourself on the left central-side of the circle and put up a consencration between them. They'll stick to you imedietly as they spawn, after the bow is down all our casters begin spaming aoe on the piled up weapons and single target dps is bringing the mace down then moving on to staff/daggers/slicer etc.

The aoe-tactics is the best for us since we got really good casters, (we use 6-7 aoers). We have all the weapons down in time and healers arent having any problems to cope. Tanking shield+daggers is np our warrior mt is doing it fine, he brings the shield along with him to the last advisor while dps is finishing it off so he can pick it up for phase 4, another melee picks one up for me and trades it while im tanking.

If youre tanking the slicer and still have rend on you bubble/remove to lose the debuff. After theyre all down run over to Telonicus/Sanguinar and pick them up in the same position you were tanking in phase 1, remote toy should no longer be a problem since you should now have the aura. In p4 theres not much i can help you with yet.

I'd go with avengers shield specc and a balanced gear mix btw.

gl! :)
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Postby DJSticky » Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:19 am

Just echoing what others have said.

I tank the Warp Slicer in P2 and move to judge on the melee targets in P3. P4 I go on Phoenix Duty.

For the rend on the sword I don't really see it as much of an issue, I'll HoJ it if it gets stacked very high or pop my pocket watch if HoJ is down. All in all though I don't take much damage in that phase unless the tank on the daggers+shield gets thrashed and killed and I end up with all 3.

I have tanked Sanquinar in P3 with the shield but we usualy have a warrior for him.
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Postby Cakes » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:25 am

Worldie wrote:You say that the passive threat is not enough to hold the shield, what if while tanking whatsoever with it (probably daggers i guess) i have some Judgement macro on that? I have 500ish spelldamage unbuffed in threat gear (+290 from alar trinket procs) + Sanctity Aura.


You might be fine. I know that with about the same amount of spell damage, I couldn't hold it against my spriests and locks, even passively judging it like you mentioned. The shield spike does hurt, but when it's the only thing your tanking, it's not really that big of a deal.

Edit: I'll post more about p4 and p5 when I get the chance. We get to p4 consistently every time now, it's just about focus firing.
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Postby Worldie » Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:54 pm

I've found another question while the "preparation" goes on.
Let's say for some reason we get to p4 and i'm tanking Kael.
The question is: supposing the DPS cannot get the shield down before 2nd pyroblast drops off and supposing i have already used the shield to block the 1st one, what would happen if i bubble? Would i get hit anyway, or i'll get the "Immune" message while he starts casting the 3rd on someone else (and this one is supposed to be interrupted)? Has anyone ever tried it?
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby DJSticky » Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:55 am

Worldie wrote:I've found another question while the "preparation" goes on.
Let's say for some reason we get to p4 and i'm tanking Kael.
The question is: supposing the DPS cannot get the shield down before 2nd pyroblast drops off and supposing i have already used the shield to block the 1st one, what would happen if i bubble? Would i get hit anyway, or i'll get the "Immune" message while he starts casting the 3rd on someone else (and this one is supposed to be interrupted)? Has anyone ever tried it?


Can't say for sure but I"m sure DS will immune you to the pyro.

Just a note on the weapons, I did the daggers and shield tonight and with 400 spell damage I was able to passivly hold the shield 100% of the time.
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Postby fiorina » Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:57 pm

Farming him from time to time, just some notes from paladin tank PoV:

- pickup warp slicer, you can try to catch mace also, but having dedicated tank on mace is bit wasting of DPS, maybe feral in DPS gear can tank it.. it should be dead in split second; if someone got aggro let him move abit("kite")
- in meantime hunter will solo bow +DoT classes will help... daggers will be down(maily by melee) together with staff(mainly by ranged)
- Now it's usually a sword killing time, you should have at least 50k threat buffer --> no problemos. Axe will be dying slowly. Shield is offtanked either by you or MT.
- Adds should be ressed in about 10 seconds now. If your DPS is good sword is down and you are going to pick Engineer. There is no problem to pick engineer together with sword. 1 healer can easily keep you up as sword hits for 2k + DoT.
- Engineer is usually killed among firsts(by melee), ranged are going for Thaladred. So your job is to build very nice aggro on Engineer. He is a bit slow-hitter so threat is not that awesome and requires some button smashing. Sword should be down now, Axe shoud be dead or dying.
- Shield should be around 50%, there is no need to rush with killing the shield before adds are ressed. You will need shield later in fight when Kael starts casting pyros. Just bring it to tank(trade him) in case shield is offtanked by you. It's perfectly possible to tank sword+shield and then get Engineer still with 1 good healer.

You can try AoE tactic as well. You need heavy AoE raid for it(7 classes at least). There is no big advatage of AoEing weapons, actualy focus firing and splitting the melee/ranged DPS works the best IMHO, but if you have heavy AoE raid, why not to utilize it.

Thaladred dead, Engineer dead. Fearing guy dying soon, Mage thingy offtanked somewhere (1lock+1 healer) and dying later.
It's a phoenix time. Save your AS and JoR, pick them fast and move a bit from the raid. But not so far away so melee don't have to run 30 yards to egg once phoenix is dead. Don't waste too much DPS on phoenix, he will die by himself. IF you have to choose between shield on KT and phoenix, go full on shield.
Upon phoenix dying make sure you announce egg spawn. It's not easy for DPS watching their cooldowns + flame patches + mind controls to register they should move and DPS egg.

If some phoenixes will get reborn, don't panic, you can tank 2 of them with 1 healer. More phoenixes to tank, more healers needed. They do pure fire damage so FR aura or totem.
Phoenix should not reborn, should your DPS is not sleeping. It could happen if there is some unlucky flame patch on melee + nasty mind controls, otherwise just keep KT shield-->phoenix-->egg-->KT DPS pattern.

If you reach gravity lapse phase and you have 25 people up, forget about phoenixes, let hunter to kite new spawns and go full DPS on Kael, there should be no more than 2 gravity lapses. Heal raid now. If you have many dead people, continue offtanking them.

Good luck.
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Postby Mateo » Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:23 pm

I had a very long response written up, but I hit a 'blue screen of death' and had to restart my PC, so here's the condensed version!

1. Not in particular, but we run with 3 tanks. (Warrior, Druid and myself) I'll tank the Engineer in phase 3, our Warrior will be on Sanguinar and the Druid will go Cat Form to DPS in that phase as well. Our Warrior will tank both Sanguinar and Telonicus in phase 1. If you guys kill the Blood Hammer before the Engineer, you can run him around in circles to avoid Bomb and hit him with Avenger's Shield/Judgment at range until melee gets there.

2. Same as #1.

3. It's possible, but I don't recommend it until you guys have the fight on farm. It's possible to take some serious burst damage with that method. Since we only use 3 tanks, we'll have our Dwarf Warrior on the Sword and Staff, our Druid on the Axe and I'll be on the Mace/Daggers/Shield. Reason being - I can't get the Axe out of the AoE pack to avoid Whirlwind if it's on me meleeing me, and I can't keep the Staff still as it will Frost Nova you and run away to Frost Bolt, even if you chain Counterspell it. Our Druid faces the Axe a few yards away from the pile that I'm tanking and the Warrior can Stoneform out of the Sword's Rend debuff and Shield Bash the Staff. The pro to me tanking what I'm tanking is front-loading threat on the Mace which is our melee personnel's first target, being able to mitigate the Daggers' damage better with Holy Shield vs. Shield Block on a fast-attacking, dual-wielding opponent, and finally, being able to build threat on the Shield without hitting it.

I usually put all of my Tier gear on for this fight, which puts me at just under 13k HP unbuffed and 350-450 spell power, depending on what I decide to wear. There's some attempts that I think I could use some more HP, and then there's some where I'll Avenger Shield a Phoenix and it'll still get away from me for a few seconds and I'll wish I had more spell damage. I'm still up in the air about it, but I think the highest stam you can get without gimping your spell power is the way to go. You can't block, or avoid the Fire Damage of the Engineer's Bomb, or the Phoenix's Burn, so stamina/spell power is what I go for.

4. I would personally respec for Avenger's Shield as it was a raid saver for me on our first kill. A Phoenix spawned on the opposite side of the platform that I was on and aggro'd on our Warrior MT. It would've been a wipe in phase 4 if I hadn't hit it with AS.

Hope this helps!
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Re: Tanking in Kaelthas

Postby Chorus » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:58 am

Worldie wrote:Ok our guild finally killed Solarian and Al'Ar last week, so we're heading Kael'thas this one.

I'm supposed to be in the "progression setup" for the fight most likely, and probably i'll have the phoenix-tanking job, i've read the tactics and watched some videos. I've had a search on this forum but still have some questions:

1) Is there any advisor that is better tanked by me instead of by a warrior in P1?
2) Same of 1, but in P3.
3) Is there the possibility to AoE tank the weapons? If yes, which ones and what stats should i stack? (stamina/avoidance/spelldamage/block)
4) I don't have Avenger Shield actually since i'm using the Sanctity Aura build, is it worth to respec for it in this fight or i can stay like i am?

Thanks for any answer, any other advice is welcome too.
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1.) Engineer for P1 since he frequently pauses to toy people and throw bombs. Bad for you and Holy Shield threat, but overall worse for a warrior imo.

2.) Same as P1, but in addition I usually start tanking him in this phase with the shield still attacking me from P2. Having the shield attacking you is ideal since you can build threat on it without directly attacking it.

3.) Yes, I do this. The only weapons I don't tank are the Axe (whirlwind), the Staff (mainly due to DPS focusing on it first to give me time to build good aggro for AoEing) and the Bow. The rest are mine. The only real threat to you is the Warp Slicer, due to it's ability to stack a high damage rend dot on you. I recommend this if you're pretty well geared and not afraid to fully buff and armor pot.

4.) Avenger's Shield isn't a neccessity for this fight, but it is very useful if you can't close distance to a bird as soon as it spawns. When Kael becomes active, try and be between whoever is assigned to tank him and the rest of the raid. He likes to target someone (hopefully it's the assigned tank but not always) and do a 20k fireball initially. You can absorb it with the shield.

For the birds that spawn, simply run up to them asap and tank them basically right where they spawn. For my guild, it's easier to adjust to a non-moving hazard then it is to have me try and drag it to one of the sides of the stage. I typically let them damage me down to 60% health then activate the shield ability so I'll get some mana back via heals. Make sure your back is facing the closest wall.

As a sidenote, most people usually assign a warrior to bird tank due to being able to spell reflect hellfire back at them without consuming the reflect buff. Despite this, you really don't take an impressive amount of damage from the birds. One healer part time on you is all you really need. This also frees up the warrior to get people out of MC, which is more of a threat then the birds.
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Postby Eliane » Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:09 am

We havent downed him yet but we are working on it. I tank the engineer in both phases. I also tank the sword and the shield. I tank the swords with only consecration and holy shield and lay all my threat on the shield. We kill all the weapons before the respawn so a high amount of threat on the shield is needed.

After that I tank the phoenix' and that is tha phase we're currently working on.
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Postby Cakes » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:54 am

Everything Chorus said about p4 is spot on. The phoenixes, in my opinion, were horrible to try and pick up, mostly due to timely resists of judgement and missed AS tosses. A warrior or I usually picked them up, depending on what side of Kael they spawned on, and proceeded to tank them where they spawned. Here, communication is key, because you want everyone to be sure when the phoenix is going to die, and that it doesn't coincide with a shock barrier.
There is also plenty of debate among guilds about whether to tank or kite the birds. We, rather I, chose to tank them for the simple reason of positioning. By tanking rather than kiting, you can control exactly where they die, which means you can position them close enough to melee so they don't have far to run when the egg pops.
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