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Mitigation Comparisons – 4 tanks

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Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:13 am

Block value has DR?
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Postby snowwight » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:14 am

Lore wrote:Block value has diminishing returns? O_o


I think the 5/9th is to get some scaling factors working correctly on his ilvl estimator section. Or at least that's how I interpreted it
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Postby Arees » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:14 am

I didn't realize we would be getting so much dodge from agility. So the question arises (it's always been there, but now it really seems to stand out to me), with diminishing returns on dodge rating, at what point does dodge rating give less dodge than agility does? And if we get so much more agil->dodge than warriors, will that close the avoidance gap?


edit:
Am I the only person that when I type something->somethingelse I get confused for a minute because I don't know what something is point to, and then remember it's not really a pointer?
Last edited by Arees on Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby snowwight » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:15 am

Whoops, I see what you guys are talking about now. That was a typo.
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Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:24 am

WATERBOYsh wrote:I didn't realize we would be getting so much dodge from agility. So the question arises (it's always been there, but now it really seems to stand out to me), with diminishing returns on dodge rating, at what point does dodge rating give less dodge than agility does? And if we get so much more agil->dodge than warriors, will that close the avoidance gap?

If I understand it right, the diminishing returns are applied to all dodge % above the base + talented, no matter the source. So stacking agi and dodge together would diminish the effect on your dodge % at the same rate as stacking pure dodge.
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Postby Exewu » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:26 am

WATERBOYsh wrote:I didn't realize we would be getting so much dodge from agility. So the question arises (it's always been there, but now it really seems to stand out to me), with diminishing returns on dodge rating, at what point does dodge rating give less dodge than agility does? And if we get so much more agil->dodge than warriors, will that close the avoidance gap?


edit:
Am I the only person that when I type something->somethingelse I get confused for a minute because I don't know what something is point to, and then remember it's not really a pointer?


Never if I understand it correctly, since the diminishing returns are calculated on your total dodge (-base dodge, dodge from base agility, dodge from talents and dodge you gained from extra agility from BOK) and as such affect dodge from agility equally as dodge from dodge rating. And seeing as agility only gives us melee crit and as such does not influence our threat all that much we won't be gemming for it over dodge rating. It does mean that mongoose is nicer for us than for warriors though.
Basically our base agility gives us a higher base dodge than warriors, and it makes our avoidance similar to that of a warrior at whatever level the stats are that were provided in this topic here.
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Postby Strom » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:30 am

I could have sworn they planned on making all the agil > dodge conversions the same for all classes? Didnt druids take a big hit there?
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:34 am

snowwight wrote:
Lore wrote:Block value has diminishing returns? O_o


I think the 5/9th is to get some scaling factors working correctly on his ilvl estimator section. Or at least that's how I interpreted it

That bits the libram, http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=40707. It's up 5/9 of the time (assuming the 9696 rotation) and the wordings bugged, so its 352*5/9 bv overall
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Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:35 am

0,0192 dodge per agi on a pally at level 80.

Thing is... I don't think we'll see any agility on our gear, just stuff like totems.

I wonder, indeed, at what point that agility becomes better than dodge.
From the estimated formula here, and the rating table, 1 dodge rating gives us 0,0254 dodge. DodgefromAgi/DodgefromDodge = 0,756. Using the diminishing returns formula, agility trumps dodge when X' = 0,756X
That's quite big amount of dodge there, on the lines of 30% if my napkin math isn't wrong
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Postby Lore » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:36 am

Strom wrote:I could have sworn they planned on making all the agil > dodge conversions the same for all classes? Didnt druids take a big hit there?


Druid dodge was changed, no one else's was as far as I'm aware.
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Postby snowwight » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:51 am

Just to double check, I plugged the numbers from the stats part of the sheet into my simulator. I got

Paladin 5953
Warrior 5830

Not sure why I'm getting consistently lower values (probably a rounding error in my code somewhere) but, meh, that's pretty good agreement all things considered, compared to the spreadsheet values of

6115
5910

That's a 3.4% damage difference (2.1% if you go by my simulator.) Finally the blue posts make sense, when you consider them looking at a spreadsheet like this one and seeing where druids are, and how close warriors and paladins are.

Thing is, it doesn't mean we're in the clear mitigation-wise, it's kind of a reflection of the harshness of the diminishing returns formula. It would be interesting to see what happens when you put the warrior in the paladin gear...
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Postby majiben » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:08 pm

This thread made me think that one factor blizzard may be taking into account that we may not is that warriors will take a higher raw incomming DPS due to a higher number of parries. This would be a greater concern at lower levels of gear where there is less expertise.
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Postby Andox » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:14 pm

Majiben wrote:This thread made me think that one factor blizzard may be taking into account that we may not is that warriors will take a higher raw incomming DPS due to a higher number of parries. This would be a greater concern at lower levels of gear where there is less expertise.


I havn't read the thread, but won't the SoV glyph making us have alot more expertise than Warriors? The 10 Expertise is alot on that gearlevel, we will remove dodge much sooner than Warriors!
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Postby majiben » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:16 pm

Andox wrote:
Majiben wrote:This thread made me think that one factor blizzard may be taking into account that we may not is that warriors will take a higher raw incomming DPS due to a higher number of parries. This would be a greater concern at lower levels of gear where there is less expertise.


I havn't read the thread, but won't the SoV glyph making us have alot more expertise than Warriors? The 10 Expertise is alot on that gearlevel, we will remove dodge much sooner than Warriors!


That's my point exactly. Warriors will both have a higher number of parriable attacks and a higher chance that any given attack will be parried. This in turn has a minor haste affect on the boss increasing the raw damage taken (before damage taken and block).
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Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:48 pm

I don't know, parrygibs are hard to model, and shouldn't be considered over common forms of mitigation at all. They vary with mob damage per swing, mob swing speed, the % of it's damage output that comes from swings...
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