Hello, Thank You and a Few Questions!

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Hello, Thank You and a Few Questions!

Postby Thundergust » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:49 am

Heya folks. Long time reader, first time poster and all that. Just firstly wanted to say a big thanks for Aergis, Lore and in fact every single other poster here for making one of (if not the) most informative class forum I have ever had the pleasure of reading. It really is a joy to come here and have learnt so much, with 99% of threads offering something informative and educational, rather than trudging through the sludge that is the official WoW forums!

Anyway, me, then. I rolled my little dorf pallie Thundergust sometime last year after getting a Rogue and Warrior to 60 and - considering I was originally of the 'lolz palas suck nub' crowd - loved it immensely. He still is my favourite character, to the point where I have a level 40 belf pallie and level 25 Draenei Pallie as well (does that make me a glutton for punishment?!?). I currently have my rogue, warrior and paladin all sitting at level 70 in frankly mediocre gear due to my restricted playtime (although my warrior has both Thunder and Lunar Crescent - BS 1-350 without mining is EXPENSIVE!)

Anyway, I recently dinged 70 and have started working on my tanking gear. It's mostly mix and match, largely rubbish aside from a few choice items (Timewarden's Leggings socketed with Solid Stars, Continuum Blade with +40 spell damage, Felsteel gloves and helm) and I find that I don't get a lot of time to play enough to 'farm' the recommended gear. That and I have awful luck with drops (If Patheloen drops that damn assassination tunic one MORE TIME I WILL SCREAM!!! WHY DOESN'T HE DROP IT WHEN I RUN THE DAMN PLACE WITH MY ROGUE???).

I've MT'd 40 mans with my warrior, MT'd end game 5 mans with my warrior and to be honest, I HATE warrior tanking. Paladin tanking, on the other hand, is awesome fun - partly due to the oft-held belief that we cannot, in fact, do it.

Right so, I have a few questions if you kind and knowledgable folks wouldn't mind:

1 - I currently have 488 Def (grr) - iirc this makes me crit immune in 5-mans and heroics, yes?

2 - Everyone goes on about how 'amazing' paladin damage is when they tank but I find I'm often 2nd,3rd, or 4th. I believe this is mostly a gear issue (my gear vs theirs, I mean), however, since it often fluctuates.

3 - Mana. I run out of it like, every pull. I've switched from using max rank holy shield to using rank 1 to help conserve it and I don't really spam consecrate *that* much, but I find my 5k of mana drops quicker than a Thai hooker and SA doesn't seem to make that much difference. I read the Tanking 101 guide and saw that Gestalt recommends that judgement of Light be the general judgement of choice, but I find health isn't a problem and mana is so I generally use judgement of wisdom instead - am I doing something wrong? Fights like blackheart the inciter, for example, are a frigging nightmare: I know this is a problem fight for everyone and is always a lengthy fight, but unless I have a good team behind me, this fight is HORRIBLE! (again, this is probably true for most everyone) and I know I've picked one of the 'worst' fights for a mana dependent tank as an example but still, what's the deal?

4 - My guild is friendly and stuff but by and large they're a bit wary of tankadins - especially the warriors. I made no bones about it when I first joined - I'm aiming to tank and do it well. I want to MT Karazhan and I told them this straight. They don't enforce specs luckily (and I wouldn't change if they did - I find Holy to be most dull) and there are one or two who believe in me - especially since seeing me actually tank - but the warriors have like, tank envy or something. 'If you can tank and do all this crazy damage, why am I prot? Why don't I just go fury or arms and DPS? Warriors are the best tanks, that's why!' etc to which I calmly informed them that warriors were not the 'best' but rather an alternative and preferred in some situations etc. They claimed I didn't know what I was talking about so I logged my warrior and said 'oh don't I?' but...ah I digress :P. Anyway the point is, dealing with naysayers and tank envy is annoying and makes you doubt yourself. Actually, I don't know where I'm going with this one. I did have a point but it seems to have got lost along the way...forget I said anything :P

Anyway, I've been reading this place loads and just wanted to thank you all once again for the informative, friendly and approachable place you've created.

Go go pallie rangers!

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Postby Eloff » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:09 am

Using wisdom is crux when you don't have a large mana pool and don't take enough damage. I used to start out with a judge wisdom, seal righteousness because my shield throw always gave me enough of a threat lead to get started.

Avoid using CC as much as possible to up the incoming damage and your mana pool. As long as your healers don't go oom, you'll speed things up and generate more damage as well.
"With your shield or on it" - Spartan Code of Conduct


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Re: Hello, Thank You and a Few Questions!

Postby Viskahn » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:29 am

wow, its like the OP has read my mind. i also had a warrior and rogue at 60 (though i gave up on my warrior at 64 in favor of my boomkin), restricted playtime, guild slightly wary of pala tanks, no luck with drops and all the rest. impressive.

so a few things;

1) post your damn armory profile!
488 does indeed make you crush immune against a lvl72 or lower mob. 490 is only required for lvl73 (raidbosses)

2) seal of wisdom can be really beneficial in those 5 mans where you need to spam consecration. as a general rule, i go "all-out" on the first mob of a pack with SoR/JoR, but after that one is dead, i switch to SoW/JoW, figuring that by this time, i should have ample threat on all remaining mobs.
3) paladin damage when tanking IS amazing. you wont be topping the damage meter every single run (ive managed it on a few occassions), but simply to be doing comparable dps to a "dps class" is huge, its effectively having a 6th person in the group.

4) on blackheart, use a mana pot after the MC. i am usually a slacker and dont like "wasting" my pots on 5-mans, but its worth it on that fight. also, this is a fight where i would recommend switching to blessing of wisdom!

5) show people that you can tank through experience. when i started levelling my tankadin, a lot of people were sceptical. i can safely say that every single guildie who i have tanked for in 5-mans has been pretty impressed and happy to support me as a tankadin. the only people who still doubt me are the ones who refuse to even group with me, and i dont have time for such people :P

6) try to win over the warriors. a few things can work;
tell them that with you tanking, they will be free to dps!
if that doesnt work, i try to focus all our hatred on those damned feral druids, who can not just tank and heal, but also dps!
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Postby Thundergust » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:48 am

Can't post my armory as they are blocked at work. I'll posy it when I get home later.

Cheers for the input though guys - it's one of the reasons I'm glad I found this place - quick, timely and above all informative responses instead of

ZOMG L2P NOOB! PALLAS GO HOLY OR GO HOME etc etc
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Postby Viskahn » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:55 am

i was banned from the official forums 18 months ago, and since world of ming merged into gameriot i was lost without a good place to discuss my tankadin, i hit the jackpot here!
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Postby jere » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:30 am

Something to consider. There are two forms of 5 man tanking usually: AoE tanking the instance and single target tanking.

Shattered Halls and Shadow Labs --> AoE tank. you should take enough damage in these to keep up a consecrates a lot more often with less drinking in between. Have your mages/warlocks wait about 3 seconds after the mobs run into your consecrate before going wild on the mobs with AoE.

Steamvaults - Single target tank. There are lots of fears/silences/etc to watch for, so AoE tanking should be at a minimum and only really used when you have all of the mobs on you that you can safely tank (not the sirens for instance as they fear). Use Rank 1 consecrates when you single target tank. That will provide enough threat on your other targets that you have that no one should pull them unless they aren't dps'ing the target they are supposed to, and it will help conserve mana in those situations.

If you wish to conserve mana, the best way is to hunter/body pull (rather than AS) and use rank 1 consecrates as those are your biggest mana hogs. If you AoE tank (lots of mobs, not just 2-3), then you should be taking enough damage and healing to keep mana at a sufficient level.

Also, if you are in the habit of marking targets, start drinking right before you mark them. By the time you finish marking your targets, you should have a sufficient amount of mana for the next fight (you don't have to have 100% for every pull...50% is sufficient in most cases).

One last thing, you can try to keep 3 sets of tanking gear :
5 man tanking gear -- spell dmg and maybe some mp5
Heroics -- heftier tanking stats than 5 man gear, less spell dmg and mp5
Raid -- 490 def, uncrushable, and even heftier tanking stats than your heroic gear.

In my raid tanking gear I have about 5k mana. In my 5-man gear I have closer to 7k. It helps. Also be careful AoE tanking in your 5 man gear. It is instance dependent whether you can do that in lighter gear or not.
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Postby Mellithe » Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:21 am

I dsagree about single target tanking in steamvaults. You merely need to always pull back to you there and you should be fine. Set up a kill order with the casters downwards. The pulls arent too difficult.

For instance before the first boss after the two bog creature pulls simply pull back to where to fought the 2nd of the bogs. Then pull the 2 guards from the tunnel. Fight the next group in the tunnel to remove fear from affecting the party. Pull yourself with shield the next pull of the 3 casters with silence and fear into the tunnel. Continue that process for the area.

After the first boss repeat this on the opposite side of the tunnel pulling everything back. Then go kill the second boss, you can kill the first slave master with the slaves, second one if you time it right you can kill out of the area and not aggro any slaves. Then comes 2 AoE's on gnomes second boss kill. After that pull the groups back from the final 4 pulls and you are done onto the Warlord and your failure to find a devilshark like always (took me 27 runs to get it finally between regular and heroic).

It will save you alot of time doing it this way over doing it with CC. Your production will be better and get to AoE tank it.

There is no regular instance that you shouldnt be able to AoE tank depending on your gear. But of course mana regen cant be problematic sometimes but that depends a lot on how good your healer is and your own style.


PS hope that helps for steamvault, but never had problems AoE tanking there like that. I think in the last 10 runs did there had 1 need to DI from a wipe and that was when the others left the tunnel and the lock feared into not 1 but 2 other groups (it was great irony to watch a lock running in fear :) )
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Postby John Ra » Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:50 am

I have found that spamming rank 1 Consecration coupled with max rank Holy Shield and Retribution Aura gives me a comfortable amount of threat to keep the secondary targets off the healer as well as conserves mana.

I have never lost threat to this combination, unless one of the mobs is out of range of my Consecrate or is a caster. Because of this, I generally CC or Skull the casters right off the bat. I rarely use a lot of mana either, and I only have one piece of gear that gives +intellect.

If you find yourself running out of mana during comfortable pulls, do what we do: Stop using your Holy Shield and start taking damage, so you can suck some mana out of that bored healer in the back, who has been at no less than 80% mana for the last several pulls now.

P.S. I rarely use Judgment of Wisdom in dungeons. If I have a (bored) healadin along with me, they will generally run up and throw that Judgment on them. I stick with Crusader and Righteousness.
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Postby Thundergust » Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:01 am

I've tanked every 5 man so far and doing rgeat. Steamvaults is great for AoE tanking tbh, apart from the heavy caster packs (Oracles and Sirens) which can prove problematic but you can just pull everything back to reduce stress.

Shadowlabs is easy - Blackheart is a pain in the ass and draws out an already too long instance but other than him (and perhaps the room preceeding him with a nubbish group), the instance is cake.

I've run Steamvaults (tanked it as well) about 15 times and never had the Steam Hinged necklace or devilshark cape - even though I got devilshark on my warrior first run and I didn't particularly want it :P
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Postby jere » Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:04 am

Mellithe wrote:I dsagree about single target tanking in steamvaults. You merely need to always pull back to you there and you should be fine. Set up a kill order with the casters downwards. The pulls arent too difficult.

For instance before the first boss after the two bog creature pulls simply pull back to where to fought the 2nd of the bogs. Then pull the 2 guards from the tunnel. Fight the next group in the tunnel to remove fear from affecting the party. Pull yourself with shield the next pull of the 3 casters with silence and fear into the tunnel. Continue that process for the area.

After the first boss repeat this on the opposite side of the tunnel pulling everything back. Then go kill the second boss, you can kill the first slave master with the slaves, second one if you time it right you can kill out of the area and not aggro any slaves. Then comes 2 AoE's on gnomes second boss kill. After that pull the groups back from the final 4 pulls and you are done onto the Warlord and your failure to find a devilshark like always (took me 27 runs to get it finally between regular and heroic).

It will save you alot of time doing it this way over doing it with CC. Your production will be better and get to AoE tank it.

There is no regular instance that you shouldnt be able to AoE tank depending on your gear. But of course mana regen cant be problematic sometimes but that depends a lot on how good your healer is and your own style.


PS hope that helps for steamvault, but never had problems AoE tanking there like that. I think in the last 10 runs did there had 1 need to DI from a wipe and that was when the others left the tunnel and the lock feared into not 1 but 2 other groups (it was great irony to watch a lock running in fear :) )


sigh...I think you really missed the point of my post....

Steamvaults was merely example. I am glad it can be AoE tanked, however, it is a bit different from places like SH and SL where you can run in grab 2-3 groups and AoE them all down, with only a couple of straggler casters. It would be rare to hear someone tell you to go AS a pack with sirens and oracles, and then go run to a bog lord or two, spam max rank consecrate and AoE them all down, as that is less likely to be a successful strategy. In SH, the majority of the instance can be straight up AoE tanked without anything special outside of an LoS pull. You don't have to worry about pulling stuff back to a safe spot, etc. SL is kinda in between. I wouldn't recommend grabbing a felguard + group, but due to the high mob density there (as compared to SV), you will find many more situations, where you can simply AS, run in, spam consecrate and go to town. SH is the best example of an "AoE" instance that comes to mind for me, but I am sure any instance can be AoE tanked.

There is a noticeable "AoE" feel to SH and SL that is a bit more difficult to accomplish in SV. Most of the packs in the beginning of SV either fear or silence. If you plan on AoE tanking adds that fear, then you need to change your strategy to make sure they don't own your healer while you are running around. I am not saying it can't be done, as you have obviously done it and I am sure others have too, but I am saying some instances are more AoE friendly than others, and given group composition and competency it can be much harder to accomplish than on instances that are more AoE friendly.

Still the point of my post had nothing to do with how hard or easy it is to AoE tank Steamvaults, as I was trying to come up with an example that made some level of sense, but more of what two different styles of tanking look like and how to figure in mana efficiency. I am sorry if I picked an example that wasn't the best, but I was merely looking for an example at the time. The real discussion is on tanking style and mana efficiency, and that was where my post was intended.
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Postby Viskahn » Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:58 am

clearly we should try aoeing black morass.

wait for about 4 portals to spawn, then go to town! :lol:
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Postby Thundergust » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:01 am

I've managed to AOE tank 2 portals when the dps wasn't up to scratch and didn't get one of them down in time. It was before I hit uncrittable, so it was bloody painful but luckily my healer was pro. Me and the priest were the only ones standing at the end of that one.
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Postby holysoldier » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:09 am

Hey there welcome to the forums. just wanted to give you a way to make blackheart the inciter a little easier from a tip i picked up here. for the first phase tell everyone to lay off DOTs and tell your healer to keep you at 60% health about, the guy doesn't seem to hit to hard. the reason is there are 2 aggro tables and heals and DOTs seem to create threat on both tables. after blackheart the inciter switches to another target everyone needs to stop dps for a few secs and you need to pop AW and through AS at him then judge righteouness and consencrate. he will stay with you pretty much the rest of the fight, he may start running around at about 5% but then you can just burn him down. i've done this now at least 5 times and only once did i fail to hold aggro for 95% of the fight and that was when AS missed, then i just try and heal and BoP when needed. this is pretty mana intensive strat so usually i do AS run in judging righteousness then consencrate then judge seal of wisdom and go back to righteousness. i've only had to pot once. and my mana pool is less then 5k.

Hope this strategy works out for you.

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Postby Lucianas » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:33 pm

holysoldier wrote:Hey there welcome to the forums. just wanted to give you a way to make blackheart the inciter a little easier from a tip i picked up here. for the first phase tell everyone to lay off DOTs and tell your healer to keep you at 60% health about, the guy doesn't seem to hit to hard. the reason is there are 2 aggro tables and heals and DOTs seem to create threat on both tables. after blackheart the inciter switches to another target everyone needs to stop dps for a few secs and you need to pop AW and through AS at him then judge righteouness and consencrate. he will stay with you pretty much the rest of the fight, he may start running around at about 5% but then you can just burn him down. i've done this now at least 5 times and only once did i fail to hold aggro for 95% of the fight and that was when AS missed, then i just try and heal and BoP when needed. this is pretty mana intensive strat so usually i do AS run in judging righteousness then consencrate then judge seal of wisdom and go back to righteousness. i've only had to pot once. and my mana pool is less then 5k.

Hope this strategy works out for you.

Holy


Kinda sounds like your talking about the 2nd boss in Shattered Halls.
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Postby holysoldier » Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:04 am

Lucianas wrote:
holysoldier wrote:Hey there welcome to the forums. just wanted to give you a way to make blackheart the inciter a little easier from a tip i picked up here. for the first phase tell everyone to lay off DOTs and tell your healer to keep you at 60% health about, the guy doesn't seem to hit to hard. the reason is there are 2 aggro tables and heals and DOTs seem to create threat on both tables. after blackheart the inciter switches to another target everyone needs to stop dps for a few secs and you need to pop AW and through AS at him then judge righteouness and consencrate. he will stay with you pretty much the rest of the fight, he may start running around at about 5% but then you can just burn him down. i've done this now at least 5 times and only once did i fail to hold aggro for 95% of the fight and that was when AS missed, then i just try and heal and BoP when needed. this is pretty mana intensive strat so usually i do AS run in judging righteousness then consencrate then judge seal of wisdom and go back to righteousness. i've only had to pot once. and my mana pool is less then 5k.

Hope this strategy works out for you.

Holy


Kinda sounds like your talking about the 2nd boss in Shattered Halls.


haha that's because i am, i'm bad with names so i wowwiki'd him and saw the pic and second boss part and just assumed:) my bad, but if your having trouble with the second boss in SH this is a good strat. sorry for being a noob:)

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