Tanking prince

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Tanking prince

Postby koji » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:51 am

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... Bubblypuff

Yesterday, I decided to main tank kara, and it all went fine all the way up until Prince. The problem i had was my threat. Near the end of taking him down, 2 mages and a boomkin were close to the 15% mark. I normally run with seal of Righteousness, and i was wondering; would seal of vengeance might have solve the problem? I have trouble with vengeance because it's always falling off all the time, so I don't think that I should risk it here.

Or maybe there's something else going on? Like maybe Prince is a slow attacker which causes my reactive threat to be a little low?
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Postby Amirya » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:18 pm

Work hates WoW, so I can't see gear or spec or anything.

Off the top of my head, make sure (and please forgive any of the obvious, just covering my bases):

Your spell damage is high enough (I have a guild paladin who signs up to OT Karazhan with a whopping 58 spell damage, no one wants to say anything, and I never catch them online).

You have Righteous Fury on.

If you've the gear to handle it, use Ret Aura instead of Devo.

Consecrate.

Holy Shield.

Avenger's Shield as he's doing his funny cow-waddle clown walk to you.

Exorcism whenever possible.

Avenging Wrath whenever possible.

Scream on Vent at your guildmates for being aggro whores. (Okay, not really. :) )

Wizard oil, Flask of Blinding Light (or appropriate elixirs).

Also, I don't bother downranking anything for this ass-clown. If I'm not taking enough damage (being an avoidance whore), I let the SW:P tick on me.

All else fails, either make the dps start off uber light, so you have a HUGE lead in threat, or else when they start climbing up there, tell them to use their aggro-dump (invisibility for the mages, standing there and looking like a retardo-chicken for the boomkin).

Being an Enfeebled Tank is No Fun.
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Postby Balanor » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:50 pm

One other thing...

If they are sneaking up to you at the end of the fight, don't sweat it too much because those percentages are percentages of total agro throughout the whole fight.

Two examples:
Early in a fight, you have 10K total threat and the DPSers are within 10% of you. Since they need to pass 130% of your threat, they only need to do 4000 in damage, assuming you stop DPSing. Thats 1 well geared mage fireball.

Late in a fight, you have 200,000 in threat and the DPSers are within 10% of you. Again, they need to break 130% of your threat which means they need to do a total of 80,000 in damage. Thats 20 fireballs from a well geared mage.

What this means is that a 10% threat lead later in the fight is ALOT harder to lose than it is earlier in a fight.
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Postby koji » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:41 pm

Well the thing is that they were 10% over me.
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Postby minieh » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:16 pm

Boomkin = aggro whoes, they generate a serious amount of threat

Mages should really just learn to stop dmg/invis. Any good geared mage could catch up with a tank on a fight like prince, the trick is to control your threat.
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Postby ldeboer » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:01 pm

koji wrote:Well the thing is that they were 10% over me.


They cant go over you in the prince they simply cant do it because then its a 50% chance for you to get enfeebled if you are not number one and thats an auto wipe. On enfeeble he give 5 people 1HP and the only person exempt is the number 1 on agro table regardless of whether they have pulled him.

There is no 130% on prince its 99.99% to be precise

Locks and mages will catch you assuming they are equally geared nothing you can do they have to use there agro dump soul shatter for locks, invis for mages, boomkin will have to stop dps he could take that moment to perhaps innervate one of the healers.
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Postby koji » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:05 pm

Well they started passing me at phase 3, which he doesn't do enfeeble anymore? This was probably the first time i've been out-threat by that much. I guess dps have to watch their meters as well. :|
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Postby Belloc » Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:37 am

ldeboer wrote:
koji wrote:Well the thing is that they were 10% over me.


They cant go over you in the prince they simply cant do it because then its a 50% chance for you to get enfeebled if you are not number one and thats an auto wipe. On enfeeble he give 5 people 1HP and the only person exempt is the number 1 on agro table regardless of whether they have pulled him.

There is no 130% on prince its 99.99% to be precise

Locks and mages will catch you assuming they are equally geared nothing you can do they have to use there agro dump soul shatter for locks, invis for mages, boomkin will have to stop dps he could take that moment to perhaps innervate one of the healers.

I have never actually seen a tank become enfeebled due to threat issues (ie. anyone having more threat than him).

I have become convinced that the only time tanks become enfeebled is on phase changes, which is a well known bug. Blizzard tends to use "current target" mechanics a lot, which explains why the tank becomes enfeebled on phase changes (prince has no target during phase changes). It makes sense that enfeeble would be designed to not effect his current target.

So, what I'm saying is that if you've seen a tank get enfeebled, it was because of the phase change bug and not because of threat.


As far as the OP's threat issues go, he probably was experiencing the consecrate bug that occurs when you (a paladin tank) are standing against the walls in the Prince area. Simply pull Prince to the wall and then walk forward a step or two and your consecrates will start working again.
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Postby Bk992004 » Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:45 am

koji wrote:I guess dps have to watch their meters as well.


Technically, they're really the only ones that HAVE to watch their meters. You have a rotation and it shouldn't vary much. You need Omen (or other threat meter) almost solely so you register for them to see.

But yeah, once you're in your rotation, there's not nearly as much necessity for you to stare at your meter as there is for them... we can never go too high, they can.
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Postby Amirya » Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:22 pm

Belloc wrote:So, what I'm saying is that if you've seen a tank get enfeebled, it was because of the phase change bug and not because of threat.


Er, no. I'm a tank who HAS been Enfeebled. Well after Phase 2 commenced. By a mage who though that pulling aggro didn't mean going above my aggro, but by going above the "Pull Aggro" bar.

It can happen without phase change bugs. It has happened.
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Re: Tanking prince

Postby palouf » Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:40 am

koji wrote:http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Korgath&n=Bubblypuff

Yesterday, I decided to main tank kara, and it all went fine all the way up until Prince. The problem i had was my threat. Near the end of taking him down, 2 mages and a boomkin were close to the 15% mark. I normally run with seal of Righteousness, and i was wondering; would seal of vengeance might have solve the problem? I have trouble with vengeance because it's always falling off all the time, so I don't think that I should risk it here.

Or maybe there's something else going on? Like maybe Prince is a slow attacker which causes my reactive threat to be a little low?


Well, your gear is more than fine for that fight...
2 possibilities (can be both ):

1 - Dps are over over geared for the fight ...in this case : "Blessing of Salvation" is a must.

2 - Dps are not playing well...How come they over aggro you ? Didn't they see omen or ktm ?

To do in both cases : Spell damage food + Wizard oil ...and judge crusador in the beginning...keep watching exorcism cooldown and try not to move a lot...
I personnaly always tank bosses with vengence more threat over time and big threat boost when 5 stacks are judged...
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Postby Amirya » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:28 pm

One other thing that comes to mind:

If you are low on mana, or out, you can't generate any threat. At all.

To do IF you have full faith in your healers: Eat one crushing blow.

Good way to get mana back in a jiffy. Just make sure you're topped off/nearly topped off.
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Postby masterpoobaa » Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:22 pm

here is my strat. has worked ever since i started tanking prince with base 11.5k hp and 180spelldamage.

Wizard oil on weapon.
Greater arcane elixir.
Max rank everything.
Have superior rejuvination pots handy.
If any DPS'ers are known threat hogs they get salv.
Ret aura.
Thorns from druid if theres on in party.
Start battle with a Hunter MDing to me. (extra theat plus i dont have to dick around finding the correct position to tank him).

Up SoR
Pop wings. (doing it early also means u can pop it again later)
Exorcism before he reaches you.
Cons, HS, Judge, up SoR
2nd Judgement i judge SoC for extra threat.
SoV usually comes a couple of judgements later once a decent threat lead has been established.

Raid rules are that everyone must be using their threat modifiers.
If the raid contains multiple hunters theres no reason why they shouldnt be cycling their MD's on every cooldown.

By the time we get to Phase2 ive got quite a handy threat lead.
This is needed as our method is for me to stop autoattacking for stage 2 and just Exorcise/cons/HS.

Pretty easy from then on.
Admittedly it was harder at the beginning with 180 base spellpower (as opposed to now with 374), but the dps need to be able to watch omen and act accordingly.
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Postby Spectrum » Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:32 pm

The DPS should watch their aggro and deal with it getting high in whatever way they can. If it's really an issue they should put on Salv and even use Tranquil Air Totem.

If it's just a few passing you then it's probably not your fault, but their fault they're over-aggroing.

I'm going to mention RF again, because I usually well out-threat the rest of my group, so if they aren't better geared than you it might be you.

My threat strategy is:
Start with SotC
Throw Shield
JotC + SoR
Exorcism
Fall into a pattern of HS and Consecrate (usually R4).
JoR + SoV
Exorcism and JoV + SoV when available.
Avenging Wrath when at 5-stacks.

After that they DPS rare catches up. SoV is better threat in the long run than SoR. Since you never really have to stop swinging in this fight I find it is better than SoR and I don't have much trouble with the stack falling off.

Really, this fight is all about having good healing, getting good infernal drops and not getting some crazy thrash-gib. The DPS should have to figure out how to not pass your threat.
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Postby Bk992004 » Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:25 pm

masterpoobaa wrote:This is needed as our method is for me to stop autoattacking for stage 2 and just Exorcise/cons/HS.



....... uh, why? Autoattacking and keeping up a useful seal throws things off for you guys?
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