The definitive WotLK raid buffs/class balance post

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Murbella » Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:14 am

Playdoh wrote:Or maybe it will be easier to keep a core group of 10 or 25 people together, instead of the coming and going of guild spots.

So if the core group of people actually stay together and progress at a decent pace, does it REALLY matter if a rogue does better dps than the enh shaman? Or will the balance become more of who actually shows up on time, with buffs, and are skilled at game mechanics?

Again I do not have a beta key, but I think all of this theory of who to bring and who not to bring is just QQ. Bring the person with the best skill and the best attitude :twisted: and let the bosses fall down dead.


A naive but cute thought line. What really happens in progression focused guilds is they recruit someone of the class they want who is skilled and has a good attitude.

These changes are moronic and are going to do the exact opposite of what blizzard wants. instead of making raids less min/max, they will make them more and exclude more people. Instead of people being like "oh hey cool a shadow priest, lets bring him" they will be like "oh a shadow priest... right... we already have a paladin sorry, your buffs all overlap with our classes so you're useless to us" (example).

Not to mention utility has always been an excuse for keeping our class down in the mud in various aspects.

To the rogue whiner: you're a shadow step rogue. that is a pvp spec and it is no wonder other people got invites over you, hell the enhance shaman probably out damaged you as shadow step :lol: As other people told you, ret paladins can't offtank in a 25 man, their healing is useful at times yes, but about as useful as a rogue evasion'ing and offtanking. There are other classes like that too. Hunter has a nr buff, exotic pets (which die in 2 hits from anything in a 25 man) and traps (which dont work on many raid targets)? it is very clear you're doing what has been done to us for years, using minor hybrid aspects of classes and WAY over inflating them in an attempt to justify making them less powerful than you.

Good rogues do get raid spots because of their dps and utility (they aren't required sure, but have fun doing RoS without a rogue).
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:07 pm

Murbella wrote:These changes are moronic and are going to do the exact opposite of what blizzard wants. instead of making raids less min/max, they will make them more and exclude more people. Instead of people being like "oh hey cool a shadow priest, lets bring him" they will be like "oh a shadow priest... right... we already have a paladin sorry, your buffs all overlap with our classes so you're useless to us" (example).

Not to mention utility has always been an excuse for keeping our class down in the mud in various aspects.


Except "sorry, your buffs all overlap with our classes so you're useless to us" happens with about 10 people in the raid. If the min/max guilds are going to hold out on good candidates to fill the last ~10 dps slots with a single class that rates out to 2% better dps than the next best, well... I really hope Blizzard doesn't design with that in mind or try to spend time "fixing" that.

Min/maxing is its own game, and it's a means to an end. To a large extent, there's no need to cater to OR prevent the bleeding edge guilds' min/maxing. It will be what it will be, and if they think that stacking 10 of some class is what they need to do, let them.

This is a huge quality of play boost for everyone off the bleeding edge. Not only can you satisfy your (de)buff requirements with a LOT of slots left for good players (not classes) and/or friends, but exactly as you say about utility, NO class needs to be hamstrung by bringing a unique utility. I expect every dps class to be balanced much closer to one another by the time they're done. Not a factor of 2 like we can find between spriests and hunters right now... more like 5%.

Call it naive, but I'd like to think they'll at least make things closer than they are now. And there's nothing in this change that will end up making things worse than they are now.
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Postby InspiredOgre » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:08 am

I HATE the computer/internet my stupid ass boss set up here at work... Serously, the man is a moron, Im suprised he can even plug in a computer, much less set this up, even though its a POS

In other words, sorry for the double post.
Last edited by InspiredOgre on Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby InspiredOgre » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:10 am

UPDATE TIME

I followed this thread, but it turned into a WoW politics discussion which has no answer. Some people will encounter guilds that will never be satisfied unless they squeeze every drop of advantage they can get out of any system put in front of them, and others will find guilds that want to actually play WoW. (To be fair, thats not fair, both groups play a game they enjoy, they just dont seem to play the same game, heh.)

Anyway, here is an update of where we stand based on confirmed changes in 8850 and blue posts. I made changes to the figures below, even if WoWhead has not updated, having not yet achived critical mass to flip the update switch, Info is gotten from MMO-Champion

Attack Power Buff (We Win (longer duration, even when talented (3 min vs 10 and 30 mins))
Battle Shout +550
Talent (5/5 Commanding Presence) +688
Blessing of Might +550
Talent (5/5 Improved Blessing of Might) +688

Percentage Haste Increase (TIE)
Improved Moonkin Aura +3% (Constant)
Swift Retribution +3% (Constant)

Percentage Damage Increase (Stacking possible/close call)
Ferocious Inspiration +3% (Pet Crit Proc (10 sec))
Sanctified Retribution+2% (Constant)

Critical Strike Chance Taken Debuff (TIE (The totem now induces a debuff on enemies. Its aoe nature balences with its stationary nature (our judgment follows the target))
Heart of the Crusader +3% (Judgment Proc)
Totem of Wrath +3% (Totem, 30/40yd range 2min)

Melee Attack Speed Slow Debuff (Implimentation radically different, tank ability, unlikely to be a factor in raid stacking)
Icy Touch/Frost Fever -14% (12 sec)
Talent (3/3 Improved Icy Touch) -20% (12 sec)
3/3 Infected Wounds/Debuff -4% + 10% move speed debuff (Proc, Stacks to 5 (-20%) 12 sec)
2/2 Judgements of the Just -20% (Judgement Mod 20 sec)
Thunder Clap -10% (30 sec)
Talent (3/3 Improved Thunder Clap) -20% (30 sec)

Stat Multiplier Buff (we win)
1/1 Blessing of Kings +10% (we win)

Damage Reduction Percentage Buff (WE WIN, ours is a buff, theirs is a proc, ours has rage/RP/mana regen, theirs has nothing else.)
2/2 Grace +1% (Stacks up to 3 times, 8 sec)
@Blessing of Sanctuary +3% (10 and 30 min duration)

Percentage Increase Healing Received Buff (TIE, Imp Tree no longer effests the buff)
^1/1 Tree of Life +3%
3/3 Improved Devotion Aura +3%

Mana Regen (Priests then hunters, then us. We only refresh the buff every 8 seconds, much less often than the others.)
1/1 Vampiric Touch Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on dealing damage.
5/5 Hunting Party Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on specified shots.
3/3 Judgements of the Wise Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on Judging.

^Tree of Life: No longer grants healing based on spirit, grants 3% increased healing received to raid.
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Postby snowwight » Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:54 pm

Looks like Grace is being changed from 3% damage reduction to 6% healing increase for the casting priest... No idea what this will mean for sanctuary.
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Postby Jerey-Darkspear » Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:07 am

Murbella wrote: As other people told you, ret paladins can't offtank in a 25 man...


Oh really?

Example 1: I've tanked demon form of Leo as ret before.

Example 2: There's a paladin on these very forums that has OT'd one of the bosses adds or something as Ret in SWP using a 0/20/41 spec.

Example 3: I've OT'd lots of trash in BT as ret (trash leading up to Teron since guild would have me respec ret for that fight and back to prot after), just put on prot gear and let your target not die first.

Maybe you should've said "I can't offtank in a 25 man if I'm ret." It's all about the skill of the player.

Edit: I'm in the process of putting together a gear set that will let me tank a Flame of Azzinoth as ret, too, so I can do something useful during the other four phases.
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Postby InspiredOgre » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:08 am

snowwight wrote:Looks like Grace is being changed from 3% damage reduction to 6% healing increase for the casting priest... No idea what this will mean for sanctuary.


Thats addative. The talent will do the 3% AND the 6%, but the 6% only helps the priest that procced it.

And it probably needed that... All these buffs that are also talents should have a solid reason for you to spec them outside the buff/debuff itself, that way, if your over-ridden, there is still a benefit in the talent.
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Postby Candiru » Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:23 am

Has anything been said about Ebon Plaugebringer vs earth&Moon vs Curse of Elements on the US forums?

I've tried posting on the EU ones, but no blue reply.

As it stands the Unholy DK's are the only spec which buffs holy damage by 13%.

That's a huge amount to balance around, either we need an unholy Dk, or we are OP with one.
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Postby StopPokingMe » Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:15 pm

Random question but I don't know if it was asked already so this is my apology in advance if it was asked.

Since Blessing of Sanctuary is a percentage damage reduction, can it be used or stacked with Improved Righteous Fury? Can someone test this one out for me?
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Postby Duzzit » Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:21 am

just wondering, can you see whether or not thunderjudge is UP on a mob? so you know they have the debuff.
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Postby Moses » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:19 am

InspiredOgre wrote:Totem of Wrath +3% (Totem, 30/40yd range 2min)

Percentage Increase Healing Received Buff (TIE, Imp Tree no longer effests the buff)
^1/1 Tree of Life +3%
3/3 Improved Devotion Aura +3%


Totems are now 5min duration.

Tree of life and Imp Dev are 6%.

Good compilation :)
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Postby Dimwit » Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:30 am

InspiredOgre wrote:
^Tree of Life: No longer grants healing based on spirit, grants 3% increased healing received to raid.
@NYI[/url]


This makes me mad. Having been a druid that stacked nearly 700 spirit unbuffed in BC it was easy to justify to as I was helping all the healers that were assigned to the tanks. Heck, I refused a ginvite from a guild because they wouldn't put me in the tank group in place of an undergeared druid. Also it gave such and enormous mana regen number that waves of M. Hyjal were just silly. But now I might as well become a cookie cutter druid and stack +spell power and maximize my healing because Blizz is screwing with all the mechanics of the game again. But this is going to complicate my job as Raid Leader to maximize a group because now you used to love to stack certain buffs to make the tanks simply untouchable or the healing overpowered. Now I'm going to be thinking the exact opposite and thinking about what buffs don't stack and what can I shed for extra DPS.

When this expansion comes out I hope you are ready to play a completely different game, because Blizzard is changing nearly everything in the game. To be honest it seems like the only continuity there is going to be between the two games is Trade Channel is still going to be full of morons.
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Postby Omatre » Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:09 am

between the two games is Trade Channel is still going to be full of morons.


/leave 2

Trust me, you won't miss it. When you need to buy or sell, join it, or just put the junk on the AH and be happy with the 99.5% improvement in S:N ignorance ratio
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:57 am

Dimwit wrote:
InspiredOgre wrote:
^Tree of Life: No longer grants healing based on spirit, grants 3% increased healing received to raid.
@NYI[/url]


This makes me mad. Having been a druid that stacked nearly 700 spirit unbuffed in BC it was easy to justify to as I was helping all the healers that were assigned to the tanks. Heck, I refused a ginvite from a guild because they wouldn't put me in the tank group in place of an undergeared druid. Also it gave such and enormous mana regen number that waves of M. Hyjal were just silly. But now I might as well become a cookie cutter druid and stack +spell power and maximize my healing because Blizz is screwing with all the mechanics of the game again.


At least you're getting 15% of spirit as spellpower as a personal replacement? I like double-duty stats wherever possible.

Appleton you say? I'm from Kaukauna. O.o
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Postby DeadMilliken » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:38 am

It would be great to have an updated version of the list to be released by Blizzard or compiled...
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