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Paladin Tanking Item Points - PTIP [gear ranking system]

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Paladin Tanking Item Points - PTIP [gear ranking system]

Postby cordelia » Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:35 am

Introduction

This is a proposal inspired in large part on what HonorsHammer does here. It is also informed via how various other classes have categorized and valued gear(AEP coming to mind, off the top of my head). Paladin Tanking Item Points(PTIP) should provide a value assignment to any item to help inform item choice decisions for paladin tanks.

The philosophy behind PTIP can be summarized as such: If an item has X ItemPoints devoted to it and allotted in a certain manner, after typical tanking talent modifiers and typical raid buffs, how many equivalent PaladinTankingItemPoints (PTIP) does it deserve? This allows us to identify which items have the BEST item budgets for paladin tanking. PTIP is subject to the following two very significant caveats.

I. PTIP does NOT identify which piece of armor is better than another. That question must be answered by each paladin individually based on (i) current gear, (ii) gearing goals (avoidance, EH, or threat), and (iii) whether certain statistics have inherent diminishing returns with regards to (ii).

II. PTIP does NOT (yet) identify which piece of armor is purely better in terms of threat, avoidance, or EH/mitigation. 1 parry rating has the same item budget as 1 dodge rating. But 1 dodge rating provides better avoidance. PTIP will quantify parry and dodge rating as equivalent. The NECESSARY next step is to make an Adjusted PTIP(APTIP) to be able to target pure avoidance, threat, EH contributions, but let's take things one step at a time.


However, I hope this is will be the start of a method to help catalog and aid analysis of gear options available to tankadins.

Also, I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE someone else to volunteer for the actual spreadsheet work that converts WotLK items into PTIP and APTIP. I'm spending too much time, already, working on just the theory aspect of all of this. Of course, you'd be credited - hell, it'd be your spreadsheets, and I'd work with you to make sure you understood all the calculations. Actually, if someone just told me some way to download all wotLK items and import them into a spreadsheet situation, I'd be happy. I am not doing this via data-entry. No way, No how. lmao.

============================================

Assumptions

Talents

Divine Strength: 1.15*str
Toughness: 1.1*armor
Sacred Duty: 1.06*stam
Combat Expertise: 1.06*stam
Redoubt: 1.3*(BV from BV or str)
Touched by the Light: 0.3*stam in SD

Buffs

5/5 Kings: 1.1*all stats
Unleashed Rage: 1.1*(AP)
Imp. Divine Spirit: 0.06*spirit in Spellpower
(I doubt we will ever see gear w/spirit. lol)

What other buffs am I missing? I am looking for scaling buffs, not additive buffs, so Fort, MotW, AI, BoM etc. don't change the Analysis.

Item Point Values

I am assuming that Item Values provided by wowiki are still valid.
1 Spellpower = 1 Spelldam = 0.86
1 Combat Rating of any type = 1
1 Stamina = 0.67
1 BlockValue = 0.65
1 AP = 0.5
1 Armor = 0.07
1 ArmPen = 0.14

I do not know how to assign gem slot values, or socketing bonuses, yet. Suggestions here are welcome.


============================================

Methodology

Each item's statistics should be multiplied by a modifier to arrive at their respective contribution to an items PTIP. Total contributions are additive. Thus, the sum arrives at total PTIP. I have not yet decided how to treat Armor, so I will leave it out of the analysis, temporarily.

Modifiers
Strength: 1.15*1.1*1.1[1+0.5*1.3*0.65] = 1.98 [DS,Kings,UR, BV, Redoubt]
Int: 1.1
Spirit: 1.1 + 1.1*0.06*[0.86] = 1.15676[Kings,iDS]
Agi: 1.1
Stamina: 1.1*1.06*1.06*[0.67+0.3*0.86] = 1.15 [Kings,CD,CE,TbtL]

AP: 1.1*0.5 = 0.55 [UR]
Defense Rating = 1
Dodge Rating = 1
Parry Rating = 1
Haste Rating = 1
Block Rating = 1
Critical Rating = 1
Expertise Rating = 1

Block Value = 1.3*0.65 = 0.845 [Redoubt]

Armor = 0.07*1.1 = 0.077 [Toughness]
ArmorPen = 0.14

Spell Power = 0.86

Gem Slots
I assume the following slotting:
(a) always slot for socket color
(b) Red sockets are 10 DodgeR/15 Sta.
(c) Yellow sockets are 10 DefR/15 Sta.
(d) Blue sockets are 30 Sta.

27.25 PTIP per red and yellow gem slot.
34.5 PTIP per blue gem slot.

Directly add the socket bonus into the item's stats.

Armor
Again, not yet sure how to deal with this.

Tentatively, I'm going to suggest starting with lvl 80 Blue Plate armor values as a base value. Then, to calculate armor value, subtract the base value from the item's armor value for the correct slot. This is then multiplied by the Armor modifier of 1.1*0.07 = 0.077, due to toughness.

Base values for lvl 80 blue plate items:
Chest: 2166
Feet: 1489
Hands: 1354
Head: 1760
Legs: 1895
Shoulders: 1625
Waist: 1218

============================================

Final PTIP Calculation

PTIP = 1.98*STR + 1.15*STAM + 1.15676*SPI + 1.1*INT + 1.1*AGI + 0.55*AP + DefR + DodgeR + ParryR + BlockR + HasteR + CritR + ExpR + 0.845*BV + 0.14*ArmorPen + [Armor-BASE]*0.077
0.86*SpellPower + 27.25*[# of red and yellow gem slots] + 34.5*[# of blue gem slots]
Last edited by cordelia on Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:39 am, edited 9 times in total.
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Adjusted PTIP

Postby cordelia » Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:42 am

Preliminarily, here are thoughts on how to start the next step, Adjusted PTIP.

Adjusted PTIP needs to consider the following three different areas:

Threat, Avoidance, Mitigation/EH.

Of these three, Avoidance is the easiest. I think the best approach would probably be to have three separate APTIP's, one for each category: APTIP.Threat, APTIP.Avoid, APTIP.EH. Perhaps, APTIP could be the sum of all three.

I would like to stick to the same methodology as PTIP, basically using modifiers on base combat statistics to arrive at APTIP equivalents of item points.

---------------------------------------------------

APTIP.Avoidance


Since Dodge Rating is the best statistic for Avoidance, let's normalize all the other Avoidance stats in terms of Dodge Rating PTIP. Since I don't know the WotLK Dodge Rating:Dodge conversions, I'm going to temporarily use TBC numbers. Perhaps they will scale the same in WotLK. I also acknowledge that diminishing returns makes this very difficult. I do not know what to do about that, except simply to say that this is to help INFORM an avoidance gear decision, and that the paladin's current gear affects how much actual avoidance pieces of gear provide.

Block Rating does not affect Avoidance at all.

Expertise does do something here. I'm not sure what. I think I did a bit of theorycraft on this ages ago.

Assumptions
Agi = 0.04% dodge (1/25)
Dodge Rating = 0.053% dodge (1/18.9231)
Parry Rating = 0.0423% parry (1/23.6538461538462)
Defense Rating = 0.04%*(1/2.36) each of miss, dodge, parry
= 0.0508% Avoidance

I assume that 1% miss and 1% parry are the equivalent of 1% dodge.
To normalize to Dodge Rating, modifiers are calculated by multiplying %avoidance by 18.9231 (equivalent to dividing by 0.053%)

Err, let's invent a number for expertise.
Expertise is 5% as important as dodge.

Modifiers
Agi: 0.04*18.9231 = 0.757
Dodge Rating: 1
Parry Rating: .0423*18.9231 = 0.8
Defense Rating: 0.0508*18.9231 = 0.96
Expertise Rating: 0.05
All other stats: 0

Calculation

APTIP.Avoidance = 0.757*PTIP.AGI + 0.96*PTIP.DefR + 0.8*PTIP.ParryR + PTIP.DodgeR + PTIP.ExpR*0.05


---------------------------------------------------

APTIP.EH


I welcome any suggestions on how to work this out.

Preliminarily, I'm looking at Stamina, Armor, and Block Value, and their contributions to Effective Health. The problem, of course, is that EH is a value that is based on total stamina, armor, and block value, and not based on individual item points.

I would like to include Armor, here, because many gear choices in the past have been between two items, when one provides slightly more stamina via gem slots, but the other provides more armor due to higher ilvl or added armor. Cloaks and Chest pieces come to mind prominently.

For now, I'm going to simply add up current PTIP from Stamina and BV, and then add in Armor*0.07. This will provide PTIP.EH values that have a HUGE base, due to base armor, I think, but I don't know what else to do.

Modifiers
Stamina: 1.1*1.06*1.06*[0.67] = 0.828*RAWSTA [Kings,CD,CE]
Str: 1.15*1.1*1.1[0.5*1.3*0.65] = 0.588*RAWSTR [DS,Kings,UR, BV, Redoubt]
Agi: 2*0.07*1.1 = 0.154 (provides 2 armor/agi, Toughness)
BV: 1
Armor: 1
All Else: 0

Calculation

APTIP.EH = 0.828*STA + 0.154*PTIP.AGI + PTIP.BV + 0.588*STR + PTIP.Armor

Note: STR, STA, and Armor are RAW values, not PTIP values.

---------------------------------------------------

APTIP.Threat


This will have to be a VERY preliminary system, since I'm sure modifiers are all being worked out for both AP and SP contributions to our spells. Psiven, I believe has worked out a comprehensive AP + SP ---> Threat theory. I haven't read it yet. Just now getting into the nitty gritty of WotLK theorycraft.

The first question is what to normalize by. Dodge was easy for avoidance. Some version of AP or SP suggests itself here. I'll go with AP to begin with. Weapon DPS has to play a role here, as well, and I'm not sure where to even begin with that. People who have looked into Weapon DPS to threat contributions vs. AP to threat contributions are very welcome to make suggestions regarding this.

Furthermore, I'm not even sure how to begin weighing crit and haste.

Thus, all of the following numbers in the assumptions section are pulled out of my ass.

[Update: Ok, I looked at Psiven's thread and spreadsheet. It should be possible to reverse-engineer threat contributions for all of the following based on the spreadsheet.]

Assumptions

Int is useful only as it provides extra mana. Arbitrarily, it may be worth 10% of equivalent AP threat. Basically, 2 AP = 10 Int.

SP is only 80% as useful as AP in terms of Item value.

Crit is only 10% as useful as AP. Agi will be normalized to crit rating contribution.

Haste is only 10% as useful as AP.

Hit is 30% as useful as AP.

Expertise is 40% as useful as AP.

Parry is 2% as useful as AP.

ArmorPen is 10% as useful as AP.

All of these represent their contribution towards threat. When I say "as useful as AP," it represents its relative contribution towards Paladin threat when compared to AP.


Modifiers
Strength: 1.15*1.1*1.1 = 1.39*RAWSTR [DS,Kings,UR]
Spirit: 1.1*[0.06]*0.86*0.8 = 0.0454*RAWSPI [Kings,iDS]
Stamina: 1.1*1.06*1.06*[0.3*0.86]*.8 = 0.255*RAWSTA [Kings,CD,CE,TbtL, normalized to SP]
Int: 0.1
Agi: 22.08/25*0.1 = 0.08832 (due to crit, normalized to crit rating)
AP: 1
Parry Rating = 0.02
Haste Rating = 0.1
Critical Rating = 0.1
Expertise Rating = 0.4
ArmorPen = 0.1
Spell Power = 0.8

Calculation

APTIP.Threat = 1.39*STR + 0.0454*SPI + 0.255*STA + 0.1*PTIP.INT + 0.08832*PTIP.AGI + PTIP.AP + 0.02*PTIP.ParryR + 0.1*PTIP.HasteR + 0.1*PTIP.CritR + 0.4*PTIP.ExpR + 0.1*PTIP.ArmorPen + 0.8*PTIP.SpellPower

Note: STR, SPI, STA are RAW values, not PTIP values.


---------------------------------------------------

APTIP Total

APTIP = APTIP.Avoidance + APTIP.Armor + APTIP.Threat


Note: This value is once again inflated from base armor values, so until I figure out a way to adjust for that, just assume that each armor slot has an intrinsic APTIP plateau as a jumping off point.
Last edited by cordelia on Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:45 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Postby cordelia » Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:43 am

PLACEHOLDER FOR ACTUAL PTIP Lists of Gear

Perhaps this thread should be confined to the theory and methodology, and have a totally new threat for the actual lists of gear.
Last edited by cordelia on Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby cordelia » Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:44 am

PLACEHOLDER for APIP lists of Gear ???
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Postby Rehlachs- » Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:04 am

why are you including spirit that high? we won't get any Spirit at all, but I'm a nitpicker :p
since we won't get out of the 5sr, spirit should be relevant in terms of regeneration. you can translate spirit into spell power because of Imp. Divine Spirit, but therefore 10 points of Spirit should be as valuable as 1 spell power.
this would lead to '... + 1.1*Spirit*0.086 + ...'

Agility grants armor and dodge. I don't have the exact numbers for lvl 80, but Agility should be more valuable than Intellect ;)

the combat ratings seem to be in a development stage.. I hope somebody else wants to calculate more accurate values, but I'm a lazy bone.
you are missing hit- and expertise rating.

edit: feel free to let me know if shall delete this post, if I interrupted your guide.
editedit: aaah, new calculation, some of my points already are obsolete ^^
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Postby InspiredOgre » Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:13 am

Rehlachs- wrote:why are you including spirit that high? we won't get any Spirit at all, but I'm a nitpicker :p
since we won't get out of the 5sr, spirit should be relevant in terms of regeneration. you can translate spirit into spell power because of Imp. Divine Spirit, but therefore 10 points of Spirit should be as valuable as 1 spell power.
this would lead to '... + 1.1*Spirit*0.086 + ...'

Agility grants armor and dodge. I don't have the exact numbers for lvl 80, but Agility should be more valuable than Intellect ;)

the combat ratings seem to be in a development stage.. I hope somebody else wants to calculate more accurate values, but I'm a lazy bone.
you are missing hit- and expertise rating.

edit: feel free to let me know if shall delete this post, if I interrupted your guide.
editedit: aaah, new calculation, some of my points already are obsolete ^^


I aggree with Rahlachs (we may need to rethink our arch rival status with e/o) inclusion of so many conditional buffs makes this hard to use. The spirit one isint a big deal, cause we can just ignore it, but, you know.

Its kinda like the hunter Agi equivlent systems that are out there, which are good cause they dont include too many buffs.

oh well.
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Postby cordelia » Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:19 am

To address both of your concerns, please re-read the bolded text in the original post. The goal of this is NOT comprehensive. It is a step-by-step process that should lead to a comprehensive item value system for tanking. What PTIP tries to do is to renormalize IP on items to adjust for talents and buffs. What APTIP will do is to then apply factors to them relevant to tanking.

The problem is that it is difficult to define what stats are relevant to tanking and what their relative contributions are. Thus, the step-by-step approach.
Last edited by cordelia on Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Candiru » Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:20 am

The first post was just summing over the %stat modifiers? So spirit IS 1.19, just when you convert that into threat, it will be somewhat lower (since only the +spelldamage counts)

Good idea though, would be good when we have final values for EH/Mitigation/Threat to have them integrated into Tankpoints or somesuch addon.
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Postby Rehlachs- » Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:08 am

the numbers and calculations from the Avoidance calculation are comprehensible but I'm confused by the final TPIP calculation, since some stats are revalued and some aren't.

f.e. gems: since you assume 30 Stamina gems, they should give 34.5 TPIP.


if the final calculation just sums up the stats modified by buffs like BoK, why is Spirit modified by the spellpower coefficient (and especially, why is the coefficient added)?

as I said, the final TPIP confuse me a lot.
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Postby Candiru » Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:10 am

Rehlachs- wrote:if the final calculation just sums up the stats modified by buffs like BoK, why is Spirit modified by the spellpower coefficient (and especially, why is the coefficient added)?
.


Spirit gives spellpower from priest buff?
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Postby Rehlachs- » Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:17 am

sure, but other stats are not modified by similar mechanics (f.e. agility giving dodge. leading to '1.1+0.04' or something like that).
I got the idea of the addition, now.
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Postby Noradin » Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:21 am

The way you combine modifiers is not correct.
Incrementing modifiers are combined additive.
Decrementing ones multiplicative.
(e.g.: DS (+.15) and Kings (+.1) combined result in a modifier of +0.25. You'll get 1.25 times the strength you would get without them not (1.15*1.1=1.265) times.)
Conversions from one stat into another or into damage from an ability and from hit to crit or the like are multiplicative as well. (If you have Kings, DS, Redoubt and the +5% BV meta 1str on gear will give you 1*(1+.1+.15)=1.25 strength and 1*(1+.1+.15)*.5*(1+.3+.05) BV.)
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Postby Candiru » Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:23 am

I thought all stat based % modifiers were multiplicative?

While the BV meta gem is certainly additive, last time I checked.
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Postby cordelia » Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:26 am

Rehlachs:

Think of it like this.

An Item has an Item Value = to the sum of its modified stats.
The base modifiers are all given in that wiki link and relisted above.

PTIP basically adjusts Raw Stats by Talents and Buffs, and gives a new Item Value that is relevant to Tankadins.

Adjusted PTIP then says, well, what is the relative contribution of each statistic towards Threat, EH, or Avoidance, and then multiplies the PTIP value of that stat by the Adjusted modifier.

However, certain Stats have contributions towards both EH and Threat, or EH and Avoidance, or Threat and Avoidance, or all three. In this case, I can't take the PTIP value of the stat, I must take the RAW value of the stat, REDO the PTIP calculation for only the portion of that stat that is significant for either Threat, Avoidance, or EH. It is in these situations, and these situations ONLY that I use the Raw value of the stat.


Rehlachs- wrote:f.e. gems: since you assume 30 Stamina gems, they should give 34.5 TPIP.

Err, that's a mistake - fixing it now. lol. And, as I said, gems are confusing and complicated - suggestions welcome on how to deal with them and their socketing bonuses.

if the final calculation just sums up the stats modified by buffs like BoK, why is Spirit modified by the spellpower coefficient (and especially, why is the coefficient added)?
as I said, the final TPIP confuse me a lot.


Look up improved Divine Spirit. 10% of Spirit is added as SpellPower. However, each point of Spellpower is only worth 0.86 ItemPoints. So, only 0.1*0.86 item points per spirit is added by the buff. There was a typo. I forgot to modify iDS by Kings. That's fixed now.
Last edited by cordelia on Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Noradin » Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:29 am

Candiru wrote:I thought all stat based % modifiers were multiplicative?

While the BV meta gem is certainly additive, last time I checked.


They changed it some time ago to prevent excessive scaling.
The way it works now, decreasing modifiers will never get you down to zero and increasing modifiers won't increase each other.
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