Reckoning and Parries

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby corc » Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:21 am

jere wrote:
corc wrote:
Lore wrote:http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t11885-rogue_warrior_weapon_skill_adjustment_discussion/

Post 32 in particular.

These guys put 2 melees up against High Priest Venoxis and swung their weapons at him 10,000 times (using cheap gray weapons). One was at 350 weapon skill, the other at 365. The guy with 365 weapon skill got a whopping 0.2% less parries than the guy with 350 =(

It seems as though the -0.6% parry reduction per weapon skill that the EU CM stated was false. Either that or it's bugged and not working how it's "supposed" to.


isnt that guy level 63ish?

I'd think a level 72 elite or some level 73 boss would be a better test.

I was thinking of just whacking away at the huge eradar on the floating island NW in netherstorm to test everything out (was also going to test out SoC tanking with a suneater for the heck of it).


I believe all "bosses" are considered "boss level" (the skull).. That means they are 3 levels above the people they attack and are attacked by. I think.


maybe, but I can put on my block gear (not uncrushable/uncritable) and not get crit or even hit but the "bosses" in uldaman... or last I checked, I'll go back in and double check though tomorrow.
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Postby corc » Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:48 am

another thing that makes me think not all bosses are equal is that the whole +hit stuff expects bosses to be level 73, and before we expected them to be level 63. If all bosses are level 73 now, then 40 level 60s would have no chance against MC bosses anymore which just doesn't sounds right.

Now, if that's not the case AND all bosses are equal, that would leave me to believe that bosses' equivalent level is determined by the level of the player which means we should bring all those level 5-11 twinks with off the chart dodge from agility leg enchants in to tank for us--give them some +hit so they can hit the boss too :P
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Postby Everlight » Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:39 am

corc wrote:another thing that makes me think not all bosses are equal is that the whole +hit stuff expects bosses to be level 73, and before we expected them to be level 63. If all bosses are level 73 now, then 40 level 60s would have no chance against MC bosses anymore which just doesn't sounds right.


No. Bosses are your level +3. So level 60's are swinging at them like they are level 63's, level 70's are swinging at them like they are 73's.

It's why back in the old days a level 58 Mage could still actually do some damage to a 'level 63' boss. As far as the Mage's attacks were concerned, he was 61.
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Postby corc » Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:14 pm

Everlight wrote:
corc wrote:another thing that makes me think not all bosses are equal is that the whole +hit stuff expects bosses to be level 73, and before we expected them to be level 63. If all bosses are level 73 now, then 40 level 60s would have no chance against MC bosses anymore which just doesn't sounds right.


No. Bosses are your level +3. So level 60's are swinging at them like they are level 63's, level 70's are swinging at them like they are 73's.

It's why back in the old days a level 58 Mage could still actually do some damage to a 'level 63' boss. As far as the Mage's attacks were concerned, he was 61.


hence my second thought, why not have low level players with the best possible gear and enchants join in more? They get more out of each +rating than level 70s. I'm not going to argue if it's true, just that this seems to be a very stupid idea. Because, you really could just have a level 5 with 110% dodge tank stuff, just have a bunch of the extra hunters laying around join in and MD rotate on them.
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Postby jere » Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:51 pm

corc wrote:
Everlight wrote:
corc wrote:another thing that makes me think not all bosses are equal is that the whole +hit stuff expects bosses to be level 73, and before we expected them to be level 63. If all bosses are level 73 now, then 40 level 60s would have no chance against MC bosses anymore which just doesn't sounds right.


No. Bosses are your level +3. So level 60's are swinging at them like they are level 63's, level 70's are swinging at them like they are 73's.

It's why back in the old days a level 58 Mage could still actually do some damage to a 'level 63' boss. As far as the Mage's attacks were concerned, he was 61.


hence my second thought, why not have low level players with the best possible gear and enchants join in more? They get more out of each +rating than level 70s. I'm not going to argue if it's true, just that this seems to be a very stupid idea. Because, you really could just have a level 5 with 110% dodge tank stuff, just have a bunch of the extra hunters laying around join in and MD rotate on them.


Because despite the level quirkiness of bosses, they still have the same hit points, armor, and dps. The level changing only affects things like dodge/parry/hit/miss, etc. Onyxia would own a lvl 40, even if she is only level 43 to them because her dps is independent of her level.

Though I am curious how you would go about maintaining 110% dodge on a character.
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Postby corc » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:19 pm

jere wrote:Because despite the level quirkiness of bosses, they still have the same hit points, armor, and dps. The level changing only affects things like dodge/parry/hit/miss, etc. Onyxia would own a lvl 40, even if she is only level 43 to them because her dps is independent of her level.

Though I am curious how you would go about maintaining 110% dodge on a character.


not sure if it's possible anymore, but you could put an epic nethercleft armor kit on a pair of low level pants and get that affect. I've seen a SS of a lowbie around level 10 solo Morladin in Duskwood using this method--just had to make sure her back was protected.

Also, it's all humor and theory, not to be seriously practiced. And Ony would most likely pwn a level 40 with fire damage unless they had crazy FR too. What could be fun would be a few level ImTooLow tanking gruul with 20 hunters MDing all the time, who would care about growths if the attacks were dodged anyway :)

edit:
link to a level 10 rogue... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmU2klgIvVE
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Postby amalah » Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:03 am

Just to kinda pull the talk back to the topic, but as a BE tankadin which is better? WEX or Precision? what are the real pros/cons of each?
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Postby corc » Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:24 am

amalah wrote:Just to kinda pull the talk back to the topic, but as a BE tankadin which is better? WEX or Precision? what are the real pros/cons of each?


it wasn't THAT far off topic, everything was about +hit and such, which would be why to get either talent.

Since you are not a human you would care for both. Humans are the only class that gets to be a paladin AND gets a racial bonus to mace/sword skill. The argument is that you only need to increase your weapon skill so much before the added skill returns are diminished enough that the talent points are not worth it.
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Postby adese » Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:37 am

corc wrote:
amalah wrote:Just to kinda pull the talk back to the topic, but as a BE tankadin which is better? WEX or Precision? what are the real pros/cons of each?


it wasn't THAT far off topic, everything was about +hit and such, which would be why to get either talent.

Since you are not a human you would care for both. Humans are the only class that gets to be a paladin AND gets a racial bonus to mace/sword skill. The argument is that you only need to increase your weapon skill so much before the added skill returns are diminished enough that the talent points are not worth it.


There was another thread recently about this. I believe it was decided that +5-6 weapon skill was the "sweet spot". Therefore, it makes sense for you to go 3/5 WE and 3/3 Precision as well (assuming you can afford the points).
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Postby Lore » Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:17 am

If you can't afford the points, I believe 3 points in Precision is better.
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Postby corc » Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:42 pm

adese wrote:
corc wrote:
amalah wrote:Just to kinda pull the talk back to the topic, but as a BE tankadin which is better? WEX or Precision? what are the real pros/cons of each?


it wasn't THAT far off topic, everything was about +hit and such, which would be why to get either talent.

Since you are not a human you would care for both. Humans are the only class that gets to be a paladin AND gets a racial bonus to mace/sword skill. The argument is that you only need to increase your weapon skill so much before the added skill returns are diminished enough that the talent points are not worth it.


There was another thread recently about this. I believe it was decided that +5-6 weapon skill was the "sweet spot". Therefore, it makes sense for you to go 3/5 WE and 3/3 Precision as well (assuming you can afford the points).


hey don't quote me, I knew this already, tell the other guy :)
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Postby honorshammer » Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:30 am

Reckoning = more swings
more swings = more pairres
more parries = higher burst to you

I'm specing out of Reckoning. I'm not sure where I'll put those 5 points.
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Postby Ferrosis » Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:55 pm

Honorshammer wrote:Reckoning = more swings
more swings = more pairres
more parries = higher burst to you

I'm specing out of Reckoning. I'm not sure where I'll put those 5 points.


Next thing you know, paladins will stop autoattacking all together. I mean sacrificing 30-40% of our damage can't be that bad.


Oh wait...
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Postby Vanifae » Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:47 am

Honorshammer wrote:Reckoning = more swings
more swings = more pairres
more parries = higher burst to you

I'm specing out of Reckoning. I'm not sure where I'll put those 5 points.

If you die to Reckoning Parry burst your healers suck.

Better not use Windfury or anything that will speed up your attack speed either.

I think we have reached a point where dropping Reckoning for fear of Parry burst damage is just plain out diminishing returns.
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Postby Icon » Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:00 am

I was half expecting someone to suggest using a weapon with as slow a swing as possible to lower the rate of boss parries.
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