Reckoning and Parries

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Reckoning and Parries

Postby Klimpen » Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:15 pm

This is a repost of a thread I made on the Tankspot forums. Hope you all enjoy it.

posted an interesting reply in the Tankadin thread, mentioning the increase in damage taken, because of Parries due to reckoning. Since I had some time on my hands, I decided to figure out increase in number of Parries.

There are two major subjective variables with this math: Avoidance and Weaponspeed. The first is important, because it dictates how often you get hit and therefore how often reckoning would Proc. The latter is important, because it's related to how many chances the boss has to parry and how many recokning charges get used. I have assumed, after looking around a few TC sites, that the chance to have an attack parried is 5% (I'm not confident about this number, if someone has some propper data, It'd be more than happy to change my equations).

For this, I'll be using my gears numbers. Against a level 73 boss, fully buffed, I have 45% avoidance, 55% block (after .6% has been removed from each due to the level difference). I'm also using [Continuum Blade] which has a weaponspeed of 1.8s.

My avoidance gives me a 55% chance to take damage, and therefore a 5.5% chance for Reckoning to proc on each strike made by the boss. Most mobs have an attackspeed of 2.0s. This means, I'll have a reckoning proc, just over every 36s (2s/5.5%=36.36s). Since I'm using a relatively quick weapon, I'll use all 4 reckoning charges. Since there's a 5% chance to have an attack parried, I'll have one extra attack parried, on average, every 90seconds than if I didn't have Reckoning.

A general formula:

T is Time between Reckoning incudced Parries
A is Total Avoidance (Miss+Parry+Block, adjusted for a level 73mob)
W is your weapon's speed.

T=2/((100%-A)*10%)*20/(((W*4)-8)/W)

Important Note: if W<2, then assmue that (((W*4)-8)/W)=4

Just as a side note, this is pure therorycraft, and cannot be truely applied to any 'real' situation. It's merely insight into an ability, that we didn't have before. Also, I cannot give an actual damage increase value, as that relies upon how much the parry speeds up the attack (Yet to see any concrete numbers on this) and how much damage the boss actually does.
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Postby Kitsuna » Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:22 pm

Pardon the necromancy, but I too was curious about this.

What with us being susceptible to being reamed by burst damage and all, it seems like increasing our chance of being parried is a significant weakness. Especially against fast hitters like Prince- it seems like the increased parry rate could effectively negate any advanatage we gain.

Does this suggest that once we have a comfortable amount of spell damage and threat output, dropping reckoning would be a good move to increase surviveability?

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Postby Demiblade » Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:41 am

Parry halves boss's next weapon swing time.

While the theory is true on paper, "one extra attack parried, on average, every 90seconds" is not going to make a huge difference on the field. You also have to count in other melee DPS who sometimes do hit the boss from in front and makes him parry.

Only this kind of scenario will make parry a threat to your survivability. You have 16k hp raid buffed, the boss is hitting you 15k per hit after mitigation every 3 sec, and your healers cannnot heal any faster than 16k hp every 3 sec. You have 1k hp left from previous swing. Next heals are coming in throughout next 3 sec. The boss parries, halves his swing time, and hits you with another 15k after 1.5 sec. You die before healers can get off all their heals because you kinda ate something what looks like a 30k spike dmg within 1.5 sec.

However, I did drop reckoning for other reasons.
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Postby Lore » Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:42 am

Parry has seemed fairly buggy lately. It doesn't seem to be halving the cast time, just giving another swing right away.

We had our Warrior tank get hit twice in one second by Teron Gorefiend (which both crushed) because of a parry.
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Postby kedalic » Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:40 am

Yep, the number of times I've eaten 10-15k spikes from hasted parries on SSC bosses is getting annoying. <3 healers that precast gheals though =).
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Postby Buldozer » Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:40 am

From what I've read WEX will reduce the chance I will be parried. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this)

Would you recommend reckoning be dropped and WEX be picked up (I've read it's most effective at 3/5)?
I like reckoning for the threat generation as it comes in handy, I find that it's always best to keep the threat cap as high as possible.
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Postby Thels » Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:48 am

The current consensus about Weapon Expertise is that 3/5 is pretty nice for Dwarves/Draenei/Blood Elves, better than Precision, but nothing further and that Humans should stay away from the talent altogether.

So if you currently have 3 points in precision, moving them over to weapon expertise would be a good choice.
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Postby Lore » Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:17 am

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t11885-rogu ... iscussion/

Post 32 in particular.

These guys put 2 melees up against High Priest Venoxis and swung their weapons at him 10,000 times (using cheap gray weapons). One was at 350 weapon skill, the other at 365. The guy with 365 weapon skill got a whopping 0.2% less parries than the guy with 350 =(

It seems as though the -0.6% parry reduction per weapon skill that the EU CM stated was false. Either that or it's bugged and not working how it's "supposed" to.
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Postby Buldozer » Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:26 am

Lore wrote:http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t11885-rogue_warrior_weapon_skill_adjustment_discussion/

Post 32 in particular.

These guys put 2 melees up against High Priest Venoxis and swung their weapons at him 10,000 times (using cheap gray weapons). One was at 350 weapon skill, the other at 365. The guy with 365 weapon skill got a whopping 0.2% less parries than the guy with 350 =(

It seems as though the -0.6% parry reduction per weapon skill that the EU CM stated was false. Either that or it's bugged and not working how it's "supposed" to.


I see the facts... but I don't go very deep into theory craft. So, what are you recommending lore? It appears what you are saying is that 3/5 WEX isn't going to help me as much as 3/3 Precision?
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Postby Lore » Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:42 am

What I'm saying is that WEX does nothing for parries, which is it's primary draw (imo).

I haven't run the numbers on WEX vs Precision.
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Postby Lore » Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:38 am

It looks like the actual +hit/-dodge benefits of weapon skill are still up to debate. It doesn't look like they've come to any conclusive numbers yet.
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Postby Trypt » Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:00 am

It could be that weapon skill has a large effect on parry rates when it is much lower than your target's defense - such as 100 skill vs lv 70 mobs (350 def). Or that the EU blue had no clue what he was talking about.
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Postby corc » Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:52 pm

Lore wrote:http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t11885-rogue_warrior_weapon_skill_adjustment_discussion/

Post 32 in particular.

These guys put 2 melees up against High Priest Venoxis and swung their weapons at him 10,000 times (using cheap gray weapons). One was at 350 weapon skill, the other at 365. The guy with 365 weapon skill got a whopping 0.2% less parries than the guy with 350 =(

It seems as though the -0.6% parry reduction per weapon skill that the EU CM stated was false. Either that or it's bugged and not working how it's "supposed" to.


isnt that guy level 63ish?

I'd think a level 72 elite or some level 73 boss would be a better test.

I was thinking of just whacking away at the huge eradar on the floating island NW in netherstorm to test everything out (was also going to test out SoC tanking with a suneater for the heck of it).
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Postby jere » Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:09 pm

corc wrote:
Lore wrote:http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t11885-rogue_warrior_weapon_skill_adjustment_discussion/

Post 32 in particular.

These guys put 2 melees up against High Priest Venoxis and swung their weapons at him 10,000 times (using cheap gray weapons). One was at 350 weapon skill, the other at 365. The guy with 365 weapon skill got a whopping 0.2% less parries than the guy with 350 =(

It seems as though the -0.6% parry reduction per weapon skill that the EU CM stated was false. Either that or it's bugged and not working how it's "supposed" to.


isnt that guy level 63ish?

I'd think a level 72 elite or some level 73 boss would be a better test.

I was thinking of just whacking away at the huge eradar on the floating island NW in netherstorm to test everything out (was also going to test out SoC tanking with a suneater for the heck of it).


I believe all "bosses" are considered "boss level" (the skull).. That means they are 3 levels above the people they attack and are attacked by. I think.
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Postby Agravaine » Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:39 pm

So, being human I'm going to drop WEX for precision.
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