Shades of Karazhan

Attumen, Moroes, Maiden, Opera, Curator, Illhoof, Aran, Netherspite, Chess, Prince, Nightbane

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Shades of Karazhan

Postby Losbullitt » Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:49 pm

Where to begin? It was just one of those runs I guess.

Guild logic seems foreign to me at times. On one hand, you have an amazing set of healers, all epic, +1200 healing and a knack for spamming flash heals to keep the tanks up. Yet the entire dps portion consists of people who score less than 250 on the dps chart and have more greens than the federal reserve. On top of that, it seems ok to plow through trash mobs knowing this, only to wipe at Curator five times, never taking him down to anything less than 94%, not even setting him up for evocation and the downtime burn.

It killed me that the GM didn't do a gear check. Why? I don't know. I don't fault him. Everyone is taking time out of their schedule to do a raid in the middle of the day. Maybe we/he should've been more conscientious about gear?

Maybe this is a rant-blog. I'm in Uther so the problem could just be a local issue.

The guild I'm currently with (and I've been moving from guild to guild since Resurgence [RIP] fell apart back in July) have cleared kara before but with a large percentage of pugs. Yet my experience with pugs almost forces me to hate them, largely due to their unallianced and dissimilar play style. Almost everyone I've raided with have done all the bosses (except for Attumen) differently. And while it's not so much that the styles are vastly different but that there is a distinct lack of leadership in a majority of pug runs. And when there is, there never seems to be enough dps or healers or even people who have enough sense to read through the strats and guides the near thousands of websites have posted. I'd argue that almost no one on Uther has heard of Maintankadin (pallies of course) and even less have heard of elitist jerks or the likes.

To this I stood resolute that with my own gear, I could tank trash mobs and probably even bosses, as that I've cleared kara and have had a ton of experience with all of them. I'm even arrogant to a fault as I blast people on trade and LFG chat about pugs and raids with people whom I know that aren't geared properly.

I ran tonight half expecting to get through to Prince. No, I expected to get to Prince and likely clear it. Then it began. Entering the back door for the first time and the first major wipe. The main tank was still in blues and greens. He was a warrior. It was his 2nd kara run.

We rez and take out the first of the trash. And this pattern goes on thru the elite anomolies in Curator's room. There is something wrong. I help out in the trash pulls and the green ghosts (I forget their names) hit me for 3k+ with holy shield up and blocking (actually only blocking 214 damage). Needless to say, I die quickly.

Now I have my eye on the dps chart. I religiously keep tabs on it during raids and instances to see who's doing what and if someone can hold their own weight. My own hunter at 67 did more damage than dps people in several instances and even tonight in kara. So now I write this, bothered, perplexed, almost crushed as to why it failed so miserably and that the GM decided to have two sets of runs, each raid group going up to curator, then him switching raid groups and running the rest with pugs, as if that helps the situation any.

So, now that I've opened myself up to criticism, I request help. This isn't just for me but what I can share with the rest of my guild.

First, my armory:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... Losbullitt

I have 65 badges, 20k in honor. What else do I need to improve as a tank? Should I step up and become MT?

The macro that is listed elsewhere; how accurate is it? Before that, I was told to just add up the points and that would give me a fair reading of what my avoidance was. Yet the addition factor gives me 20 points less than what the macro says. Am I uncrushable?

What is the expected dps tally for mobs and/or bosses? I've read it should be around 500 for kara. The highest I saw for Curator was 399 and that was one person that was helping with those damned adds. Everyone else had pulled a little over 200. That should be an indication of something wrong.

Hit rating. What real number does that need to be? What is the hit cap?

What should an ideal raid consist of? This time we had two tanks, 5 1/2 dps and 2 1/2 healers (a druid switched between dps and heals). DPS was mage, warlock, rogue and two hunters.

What has been the most successful strategy in tanking curator? Should we, instead, have gone to Nightbane?

Help.
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Postby masterpoobaa » Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:24 pm

Your gear looks ok...
Cant tell exactly but you look uncrushable from your avoidance, dodge seems a bit low, i would have expected 20%+

You ned more stamina though.
You are close to what i was when i started kara and tanking was tough.
And the first 2 runs or so i was mostly the offtank.

Badge gear and kara gear is what you want.
75 badge chestpiece, 100 badge leggings, 35 badge cloak etc.

Get another 5k honour and get the merciless gladiators gavel.
I just got one this weekend (upgrade from the crystal forged sword)
and it rocks my socks!

Ideal raid:
2 tanks (but not 2 pallie tanks)
1 ret pally - very good synergy with buffs and JoC on bosses :)
3 healers - doesnt really matter which so long as they have skill & gear.
5 random dps.
I like to see at least 1 mage for buffs, aoe, and the foodtable :)
Also like to see 1 lock for imp (oh the hp buff!) and banish.
remaining 3 whatever... ranged is usually better with maiden/prince.
ive always liked hunters & traps.

Curator strategy that works for our guild:
Even though im a pallytank (and now often maintank)
i defer to a warrior/druid for this battle.
She silences like a BEOTCH and im more useful to the raid in a support role.
Cleansing her holy fire and tossing off heals if the main healers get stunned. Just from kara ive collected a +1100heals offset. - ALOT of healing plate in kara.
Tank tanks her exactly in the middle of her platform.
healers and ranged stand on the 1st step of her platform, evenly spread around in a circle with the 3 main healers in a triagle formation.
Mellee dps just have to suck it up and suffer her consecrate.
Healers have to keep the tank topped up with HoT's when she does her silence... This is a battle where druid healers have a big advantage.
When she holyfires, cleanse it ASAP.

If you do tank her as a pally, try to get SoV up on her, slot in holyshield/consecrate/judements between the silences... make sure the dps have a threat meter like omen and know how to use it.
And pray u have good dps.

P.S. my gear has upgraded a bit since i did my sig. see it here:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... n=Ellifain
everything availalbe from badge/rep or kara.
Ellifain @ Khaz'Goroth does not approve of torture, save where there's experience/rep/loot involved.
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Postby ldeboer » Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:31 pm

Long story ... short answers

First

http://uther-us.warcrafter.net/Losbullitt

click on buffs put up holy shield you are 105.05 ... way past uncrushable

Criticism you have gimped you HP alot with strange gemming and chanting for spell damage and avoidance you dont need at your level.
If you have 20K honor get the remain 5K honor and get the S2 mace.
Legs and chest are your next items with badges.

If your gear is the better or equal of the two tanks you should MT. Why even if equal as dps you suck and because of excorcism on undead you can generate more threat.

Curator is a dps check if you cant down him no point in going on.

At quest level gear your hunters,locks and mages should be outputting 300dps that will lift to +450 with S2 pvp gear gemmed for hit. You will need the majority of your dps at +450 to clear kara and that matches what is required to down Gruul in a reasonable amount of grows.

Hit cap varies with diff classes and talent selections from memory its 202 without talents for mages, priests and locks. Warcrafter shows it correctly although to be honest you will rarely find a hit capped mage as the trade off from +hit to +spell damage initially favours stacking spell damage till around 850 spell damage is reached.

The best place for range to see there dps is Dr Bomb in netherstorm sit on the rock or barrel and dps the crud out of him with recount addon running ... usually theroycrafting it on elitist jerks or warcrafter.

With two +1200 heals you should be able to do with 2 healers it's really going to only be a problem of them running out of mana if your dps is too low .. no tank should be dying assuming the tanks are geared right.

Best strat on Curator is MT on it. If you have a lock or shadow priest with over 9K HP get them to dot it and stay second on threat to take the hurtful strike. Everyone else on flares and dps curator on evocations. If you dont have the dps you will hit the enrage timer and he will cream the tank. Thats why its a dps check.

The advantage you have with nightbane is there is no enrage timer so you can take all day so for dps its an easy fight. Downside he hits like a truck on the tank .. it really is a tank level check and why to do it you needed to get the urn from heroic SH and Heroic Seth boss.
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Postby ldeboer » Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:35 pm

masterpoobaa wrote:
Curator strategy that works for our guild:
Even though im a pallytank (and now often maintank)
i defer to a warrior/druid for this battle.
She silences like a BEOTCH and im more useful to the raid in a support role.
Cleansing her holy fire and tossing off heals if the main healers get stunned. Just from kara ive collected a +1100heals offset. - ALOT of healing plate in kara.
Tank tanks her exactly in the middle of her platform.
healers and ranged stand on the 1st step of her platform, evenly spread around in a circle with the 3 main healers in a triagle formation.
Mellee dps just have to suck it up and suffer her consecrate.
Healers have to keep the tank topped up with HoT's when she does her silence... This is a battle where druid healers have a big advantage.
When she holyfires, cleanse it ASAP.
.


You are talking about maiden not curator :)
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Postby masterpoobaa » Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:39 pm

whoops sh1te yer...
Always get those two confuzzled for some reason.

Try 2. :lol:

MT it.
You shouldnt have to worry aobut threat as to begin with everyone is going for flares.
Save your wings for evocation.
main cause of wipes on curator - SLOW ASSED DPS on the flares.
There should only be 1 up at a time.
the end.
Ellifain @ Khaz'Goroth does not approve of torture, save where there's experience/rep/loot involved.
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Postby Feyray » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:34 am

Guild logic seems foreign to me at times. On one hand, you have an amazing set of healers, all epic, +1200 healing and a knack for spamming flash heals to keep the tanks up. Yet the entire dps portion consists of people who score less than 250 on the dps chart and have more greens than the federal reserve. On top of that, it seems ok to plow through trash mobs knowing this, only to wipe at Curator five times, never taking him down to anything less than 94%, not even setting him up for evocation and the downtime burn.


I quit the guild I was raiding SSC/TK with on my warlocks old server because of this very reason. My first time into Kara I was doing a trial run with that same guild and I topped the damage charts (affliction doesn't realy measure dps, it measures overall damage. I think dps was around 6-700ish). The only one that gave me competition was the Kara geard rogue, who I eventually surpassed.

I'm new to tanking (and all forms of melee realy) but I've been playing various dps classes, mostly caster, for over 2 yrs. I KNOW how to dps. 250 dps? GTFO. I did more than that on my hunter at 62. I do more than that on this pally on any instance I tank. I had a mid lvl 60 ely shaman I grouped with the other day in SP that did over 400. I've seen a frost mage that had all blues and greens walk into Kara for the first time and do 900 dps. 250 dps from dps classes is not just a gear problem, thats a skill problem. I assure you all the purps in the world arn't going to help that player significantly.

The vast majority of dpsers I hate to say just suck. It doesnt help that gl/rl have a very low standard either, and that dpsers are considered to be a dime a dozen. Then again, good...REALY good dpsers... are so rare that you don't realy have anything to compare to.

It's hard to give you a standard guide line because what is required varies on class and spec but a warlock, especially affliction, the base minimum is I think 7k health and 800 spell damage and roughly 70 hit i think (it's been a long time sorry). I went in with roughly 700...but I was good and knew how to play my class. Destro locks arn't considered the "optimal" spec for entry level Kara. Not to say that they "can't" dps it's just not optimal because it's very hard to get the gear to support that spec pre kara. Casters, unlike melee and hunters, have no main stat (intel, stam, agil, spirit) that increases our dps. Their dps comes from all the little green stats at the bottome, spell damage hit and crit (affliction doesn't stack crit. If they do they fail) Greens, even in OL gives very little of these compared to blues. Odds are if they have much over 8 k health they've sacrificed too much of these.

Basically there realy is no reason why a dpser, especially if they have the gear from heorics, can't hit 800 dps. 600=800 should cover all dps classes (mage lock hunter and rogues) anything lower than that, they're a scrub in my book. Like I said it's hard to give specifics cause it varies a bit from class to class and spec, but hopefully tht should give you a generalization of what too look for. I know tanks and healers are used to dragging poor dpsers a long, and that might work in normal instances...but by Kara they need to step up to the plate or else it won't matter how good your tanks and healers are geared.
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Postby ldeboer » Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:44 am

Sorry he is talking about new level 70's dps ... like when some of us started out in kara and before they started to give away povo epics and badge gear. As he says "more greens than the federal reserve" and there is nothing wrong with that so long as they are the right greens.

This is vastly different to what you are talking about "Basically there realy is no reason why a dpser, especially if they have the gear from heorics, can't hit 800 dps. 600=800 should cover all dps classes"

We did it in greens and blues with 350-400 dps and withoutout all the crap nerfs ... its doable it just needs you to learn the skills you should have to raid higher instances anyhow.

The crap now with peeps going in with gear that pumps out 800 dps means you are in badge gear etc why would you be bothering with kara save from the odd badge run which hardly meets the sort of guild progression runs we are talking about.

To put in in perspective 800 dps x 15 = 12000 dps thats gruul dead by grow 9 an average progression try 14 or 15.

Spelt out from http://www.wowwiki.com/Gruul

DPS NeededRaid-wise you will need an average of 6666.67 DPS to kill Gruul before he reaches 17 Grows (at which point the tank is risking getting killed in one hit), or an average of 266.67 DPS per raid member (assuming a full group of 25).

Assuming your raid has 3 tanks doing about 150 DPS each and 5 healers doing 0 dps, the remaining 17 DPS classes in the raid will need to average about 365 DPS on Gruul.


Gruul is progression after Kara and thus any dps'er that can make +400 is fine to complete kara.
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Postby Losbullitt » Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:20 am

masterpoobaa wrote:whoops sh1te yer...
Always get those two confuzzled for some reason.

Try 2. :lol:

MT it.
You shouldnt have to worry aobut threat as to begin with everyone is going for flares.
Save your wings for evocation.
main cause of wipes on curator - SLOW ASSED DPS on the flares.
There should only be 1 up at a time.
the end.


Appreciate the answers.

At one point, we had 2 flares out that weren't close to being taken out and caused some pretty nasty wipes.

The gemming question. Should I be stacking stamina gems on all my gear? What is your suggestion to this?

I KNOW how to dps. 250 dps? GTFO.


But I don't wan to. :(
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Postby Katerina » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:10 am

Pugging can be a wonderful thing - more often it is torture. Sometimes it is a mix of both.

Three healers makes Kara painful, just like ZA. The more dps, the faster stuff dies, the less healing needs to be done and the faster the whole raid goes.

I pugged Kara over the weekend on my tree (I've decided I want to get her the boomkin badge gear for Wrath) and it was an interesting experience. Slower than all hell. We finally got Curator down with only one wipe (no one was dpsing the flares, so toward the end we had like 10 of them out, which just was unhealable), but the tank did a ready check after explaining every trash pull ("These ghosts hit really hard and might put a curse on me. I need you to take it off as soon as possible, okay? Thanks." then a minute later, "okay I'm going to pull, be ready to decurse me. *pops ready check*). The standing around was wearing me out. My tree has solo healed speed runs (though obviously with a more experienced group. But one tank/one healer means stuff just blows up. It isn't tanked nearly so much as it is momentarily distracted on the way to pull the next group, lol). So doing this in slow motion (four hours to get Curator down in spite of only wiping once... on curator....) was painful.

I had to talk them into doing nightbane. MT didn't think he was up to it and I asked him to have faith in me (Okay, so he had 14k hit points with fort, kings, and MotW, so he had a point... But he was uncrushable and thanks to the shammy totem he wasn't likely to get instagibbed during fears). Lack of confidence more than skill. The shadow priest in holy gear died, I BR'd her and we one shottted him. But the unconfident MT gave us literally a 20 min redudant description of the fight.... I was honestly on the verge of just plopping down my urn (I was the only one who had an urn....) when he finally gave me the signal.

Out of five dpsers we had 3 with less than 400 dps. I wanted to suggest the spriest go get her real gear and dot stuff up, but the tank didn't seem like he could take much more stress. :p And I was just the pug healer. Seemed better to be supportive. :)

To be honest the dpsers were not 'bad' players. They did not stand in charred earth, moved away from the group when exploding, managed to cc Moroes' adds, etc.

And on the plus side, I helped a new tank successfully tank Nightbane - which is a pretty nice milestone in his budding MT career. I know I was pretty stoked the first time I managed to tank him. Maybe next time he goes he won't feel quite so nervous. :)
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Postby HannahBelle » Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:53 am

I don't mind pugging. But I check the tank out ahead of time. Green gear on MT = me no run. I have a Spriest alt to take when I'm not MT.

Seriously though, one of my favorite past times is running Heroics and Kara on my Spriest with new tanks. Especially heroics when they are just starting out. These guys are usually alittle on the undergeared side, but are just dying to get through one for the badges or some confidence. All the other PuG's want MH geared tanks to run a Heroic so they are just estatic to be there. I go out of my way to help them when they are tanking, helping them plan pulls, etc. I was once there with no one wanting to give me a shot tanking heroics, even though I was in blues and purples. OT I know, but beginner tanks can have a rough go starting out unless they have a supportive guild.
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Postby Losbullitt » Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:05 am

Ran Kara thursday night.

Oddly with holy shield up, I was crushed. Moroes nailed me for 5k damage. :shock:
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Postby ldeboer » Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:18 am

Losbullitt wrote:Ran Kara thursday night.

Oddly with holy shield up, I was crushed. Moroes nailed me for 5k damage. :shock:


Were you incapacitated at the time?
He does a gouge or if the adds were still up the pally's stun.

Holy shield up or not in that situation you get crushed because your avoidance is zero.

And 5K is a small hit as far as bosses go.
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Postby Aranbenjo » Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:35 am

i like holy priest on my side in kara for shackle ...
The savior of the broken,the beaten and the damned

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Postby Senador » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:49 am

One thing:

There are two types of people in raids. Those who are willing to listen to instructions and those who aren’t.

For the former, you can see them in greens and blues and out performing people in epics, these are the ones you know you can count on to do an assignment. The ones you don’t have to scream at “Kill the chains/flares/adds,” “Run out while you have enfeeble,” and “get in the damn green beam.” They listen to feedback and instructions, whether it be a raid leader giving instructions, someone else in their class giving advice or websites providing information. If your Karazhan raid is made up of these, even if their gear is mostly blues with a smatter of greens and epics, you will likely still succeed.

For the latter, these are those who in full epics are out DPSed by the tank. The statement of “Kill Skull, then X, then Triangle” might as well be written in Latin for all the good it will do; and god forbid you actually ask them to figure out how to prioritize the targets on their own as they spawn, and critical thinking confuses them, as they can’t figure out how a thought can do double damage. Feedback is wasted on them, as they will continue doing what they want to do, and likely being carried through most of what they attempt. If your Karazhan raid is made up of several of these, either pray to ram your head through the content by vastly overgearing it, or expect a hefty repair bill for the night.

Figuring out which ones in your raids fall into which category and assigning them roles based on their aptitude is the hardest part of being a raid leader.
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Postby ldeboer » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:37 pm

Aranbenjo wrote:i like holy priest on my side in kara for shackle ...


At your gear level and 15KHP unbuffed you still shackle?

Really ... you are crazy!

You are a prot pally act like it .... consecrate and tank it all.
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