Warriors and Paladins Block About the Same in Build 8905

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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:11 am

moduspwnens wrote:But wait, your simulator doesn't do Redoubt, right?


Sure it does. Redoubt has a chance to proc on any block or damaging attack.

Redoubts effectiveness at all levels is really not that great.

For example:

At the base no-crit level, zero extra ratings:

on 100,000 attacks:

I got 13,653 hits, 45006 blocks for the paladin
The block rates were as follows:

10436 from normal block.
29,975 from Holy shield block.
4595 from redoubt blocks

Redoubt procced 5676 times, but with only a single mob hitting, rarely procs at the right time.

Logic is that on charge consumption HS charges are always prioritized over Redoubt charges.

Generally, redoubt is always < the 5% block rate advantage.

Same scenario but with 10% more block from block rating:

I got 6,079 hits, 52903 blocks for the paladin

The block rates were as follows:

20746 from normal block.
29,994 from Holy shield block.
2163 from redoubt blocks

Redoubt procced 5879 times

Now, lets assume for a second that instead of getting redoubt with our shield bv improvement talent we got 5% block chance instead.

Same scenario as initial (uncrit plus no block rating)

I got 13,085 hits, 45660 blocks for the paladin
The block rates were as follows:

15665 from normal block.
29,995 from Holy shield block.

Note that even at our lowest level of raid possible avoidance we benefit more from block rating than we do from redoubt against a single target.

Redoubt only shines against mult-target tanking and declines as gear improves. It never approaches or exceeds the contribution that warriors get from there mechanics except at the lowest possible gear levels (well below crit cap).

Replacing redoubt with a block rating increase would make us even worse AoE tanks.

Without some type of crit modifier like warriors have, I can't see an easy solution.

At lower levels, giving us an equivalent 30% to crit block would help..but its still weaker than the warrior mechanic, since their answer to multi mob tanking is really Shield block and it just scales better than ours with more mobs.
Last edited by Garath.Gorefiend on Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby steadypal » Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:14 am

WTB 5% block rating PST
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Postby snowwight » Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:28 am

If you were to remove the charges on Holy Shield, what would be the result?
Tankadin since before it was a good idea
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Postby Noradin » Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:50 am

snowwight wrote:If you were to remove the charges on Holy Shield, what would be the result?


Slightly more AoE threat on very large groups.
Better mitigation on groups (It would scale up the same way as all other means of mitigation/avoidance do on large groups)
Redoubt would be useless in its current form.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:14 pm

Alright, so I re-ran the simulations over on page 5 with the new summarization style, and I don't know if it's that, or that I wasn't changing that 5% block (although I'm fairly sure I did), or that 10,000 wasn't enough, but one of the values (50% avoidance, 10/15% block) did change in favor of the warrior.

Even so, though, our values shouldn't match because mine are including the Glyph of Blocking, right?
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Postby Exewu » Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:50 pm

snowwight wrote:If you were to remove the charges on Holy Shield, what would be the result?


At 40% avoidance (should be easy attainable) you would need 5 mobs hitting you at 1swing per 2 seconds to use up all the charges of holy shield. The problem is not the charges of holy shield, the problem is that we cannot improve our blocking all that much. We can stack block value, a warrior can stack blockvalue and blockrating. A paladin is balanced around blocking every incoming hit except on large packs, where mitigation isn't really all that important otherwise you wouldn't be tanking them solo. Blocking every hit as a paladin only requires HS, 40% avoidance and 30% block. After that blockrating is useless.
A warrior's block however is modeled to offer the same protection when they have low blockrating, when they stack blockrating however (which they will and should do) they will mitigate higher amounts of damage because of critical block and shieldblock.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:46 pm

Exewu wrote:
snowwight wrote:If you were to remove the charges on Holy Shield, what would be the result?


At 40% avoidance (should be easy attainable) you would need 5 mobs hitting you at 1swing per 2 seconds to use up all the charges of holy shield. The problem is not the charges of holy shield, the problem is that we cannot improve our blocking all that much. We can stack block value, a warrior can stack blockvalue and blockrating. A paladin is balanced around blocking every incoming hit except on large packs, where mitigation isn't really all that important otherwise you wouldn't be tanking them solo. Blocking every hit as a paladin only requires HS, 40% avoidance and 30% block. After that blockrating is useless.
A warrior's block however is modeled to offer the same protection when they have low blockrating, when they stack blockrating however (which they will and should do) they will mitigate higher amounts of damage because of critical block and shieldblock.


your not calculating correctly...

With 5 mobs attacking you, swing speed 2.0, you haver 20 Attacks coming in 8 seconds (refresh time on HS)

HS charges are half that...so they will get used up but unless you avoid the other 10 attacks, your gonna take some hits...if redoubt is up, it blocks them...but its not always up
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:47 pm

moduspwnens wrote:Alright, so I re-ran the simulations over on page 5 with the new summarization style, and I don't know if it's that, or that I wasn't changing that 5% block (although I'm fairly sure I did), or that 10,000 wasn't enough, but one of the values (50% avoidance, 10/15% block) did change in favor of the warrior.

Even so, though, our values shouldn't match because mine are including the Glyph of Blocking, right?


Hmm I was not turning on Glyph in mine or yours when I ran comparisons...
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Postby Exewu » Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:49 am

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:
Exewu wrote:
snowwight wrote:If you were to remove the charges on Holy Shield, what would be the result?


At 40% avoidance (should be easy attainable) you would need 5 mobs hitting you at 1swing per 2 seconds to use up all the charges of holy shield. The problem is not the charges of holy shield, the problem is that we cannot improve our blocking all that much. We can stack block value, a warrior can stack blockvalue and blockrating. A paladin is balanced around blocking every incoming hit except on large packs, where mitigation isn't really all that important otherwise you wouldn't be tanking them solo. Blocking every hit as a paladin only requires HS, 40% avoidance and 30% block. After that blockrating is useless.
A warrior's block however is modeled to offer the same protection when they have low blockrating, when they stack blockrating however (which they will and should do) they will mitigate higher amounts of damage because of critical block and shieldblock.


your not calculating correctly...

With 5 mobs attacking you, swing speed 2.0, you haver 20 Attacks coming in 8 seconds (refresh time on HS)

HS charges are half that...so they will get used up but unless you avoid the other 10 attacks, your gonna take some hits...if redoubt is up, it blocks them...but its not always up


5 mobs who attack once every 2 seconds -> 20 attacks incoming per 8 seconds. With 40% avoidance about 12 of those will be hits, meaning you will avoid 8 attacks, block 10 and take 2 normal hits.
4 mobs who attack once every 2 seconds -> 16 attacks incoming per 8 seconds. With 40% avoidance about 10 of those will be hits, meaning you will avoid 6 attacks, block 10 and take 0 normal hits.

Which means, holy shields' charges are not the problem at all and adding more charges will achieve nearly nothing.
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Postby Noradin » Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:01 am

Exewu wrote:Which means, holy shields' charges are not the problem at all and adding more charges will achieve nearly nothing.


It won't help with our blocking problem concerning bosses, but it will close the new gap between warriors and us while tanking large groups.
Right now Redoubt is used to improve our mitigation in those occasions, but it is somewhat underpowered.

Personally, I think those charges on HS (and Redoubt) should be removed and Redoubt should be changed into something to improve our BV further.

That way our avoidance and mitigation would stay the same independent of the amount of mobs we are tanking (for every other class that is already the case) and not decrease. Also we could make up for our worse avoidance and mitigation multipliers if the effect of the new Redoubt would be strong enough.
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Postby Exewu » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:24 am

True, but think of the problems that will cause with aoe farming. Imagine pulling half the netherwing mine (eehhh no more consecration rank 1 to continuously tag the mobs so they don't leach :cry: ) and block all incoming attacks while also hitting them for ~200 holy damage on each block, ~120 from ret aura and ~130 dps from consecration all while having unlimited mana from BOS. How long would it take before the nerfhammer would strike down?

edit: I think your idea's concerning redoubt are good though. If holy shield could be moved more to be a threat/damage ability and redoubt became what we'd count on to block all incoming attacks/block for higher amounts. That could work very well.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:33 am

i don't think they really care much about the farm opness of it, otherwise they'd have nerfed the figurine of the colossus long long ago. And I never needed boSanct to tag and kill 750 mobs at once either, so it's not like BoSanct's going to give me much on farming. Just less downtime.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:05 am

Exewu wrote:
Garath.Gorefiend wrote:
Exewu wrote:
snowwight wrote:If you were to remove the charges on Holy Shield, what would be the result?


At 40% avoidance (should be easy attainable) you would need 5 mobs hitting you at 1swing per 2 seconds to use up all the charges of holy shield. The problem is not the charges of holy shield, the problem is that we cannot improve our blocking all that much. We can stack block value, a warrior can stack blockvalue and blockrating. A paladin is balanced around blocking every incoming hit except on large packs, where mitigation isn't really all that important otherwise you wouldn't be tanking them solo. Blocking every hit as a paladin only requires HS, 40% avoidance and 30% block. After that blockrating is useless.
A warrior's block however is modeled to offer the same protection when they have low blockrating, when they stack blockrating however (which they will and should do) they will mitigate higher amounts of damage because of critical block and shieldblock.


your not calculating correctly...

With 5 mobs attacking you, swing speed 2.0, you haver 20 Attacks coming in 8 seconds (refresh time on HS)

HS charges are half that...so they will get used up but unless you avoid the other 10 attacks, your gonna take some hits...if redoubt is up, it blocks them...but its not always up


5 mobs who attack once every 2 seconds -> 20 attacks incoming per 8 seconds. With 40% avoidance about 12 of those will be hits, meaning you will avoid 8 attacks, block 10 and take 2 normal hits.
4 mobs who attack once every 2 seconds -> 16 attacks incoming per 8 seconds. With 40% avoidance about 10 of those will be hits, meaning you will avoid 6 attacks, block 10 and take 0 normal hits.

Which means, holy shields' charges are not the problem at all and adding more charges will achieve nearly nothing.


I can't really agree with you on this.

Simulations are showing that Warrior mechanics are averaging an effectiveness of more than 1 block (displayed block value) per damaging attack.

Paladins never can be greater than 1 and in AoE situations are always < 1.

The warrior mechanic stays at exactly the same level for his avoidance/block regardless of the number of mobs attacking.

If HS had no charges AND paladins have pushed normal hits off the table with HS up, then they would stay at 1, regardless of the number of mobs attacking. BUT, even this does not bring us to par with the warrior mechanic.

However, if HS had no charges AND Redoubt was changed to provide a 10% chance to critically block, THEN we would be about par from a mitgation perspective.
Last edited by Garath.Gorefiend on Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:12 am

for me holy shield wouldn't have charges and get a 50% increase to block value(ShoR would be scaled down accordingly). That puts it on par with the "mini shield wall". From there I frankly don't care much if redoubt doesn't outperform critical block.

The second issue is actually threat gen. Regardless of blocking, damage shields is as effective as holy shield on threat gen... but it's always active and also procs on full hits. Their passive threat gen is better. I don't know how it compares on the active side though.
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Postby Noradin » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:54 am

Exewu wrote:True, but think of the problems that will cause with aoe farming. Imagine pulling half the netherwing mine (eehhh no more consecration rank 1 to continuously tag the mobs so they don't leach :cry: ) and block all incoming attacks while also hitting them for ~200 holy damage on each block, ~120 from ret aura and ~130 dps from consecration all while having unlimited mana from BOS. How long would it take before the nerfhammer would strike down?

edit: I think your idea's concerning redoubt are good though. If holy shield could be moved more to be a threat/damage ability and redoubt became what we'd count on to block all incoming attacks/block for higher amounts. That could work very well.


Can't be an issue, since warriors could do this, too. (using Damage Shield, their rage for blocks/parries talent and the figurine)
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