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Warriors and Paladins Block About the Same in Build 8905

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby moduspwnens » Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:21 pm

Toggle on "Show Effective Blocks." That's what I mean when I say that you can literally test everything, and that the only thing you can't literally see in front of your face is the random numbers, which are done by the PHP function and, for all intents and purposes, random.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:57 pm

Ah, I see, the text is wrong but the values are correct, only difference is yours all reverence the untalented block value as 1, mine assumes talented value is 1...

I do have to say that I do not understand the way your summarizing then. It looks like your summarizing based on text of the message, not on the value of the block.

The summarization on criticals looks correct.

Misses: 91 (9.1%)
Dodge: 240 (24%)
Parry: 126 (12.6%)
Block (Passive): 161 (16.1%) Critical: 52 (5.2%)
Block (Shield Block): 49 (4.9%) Critical: 41 (4.1%)

Hit: 240 (24%)
Critical Block Rate: 31%
Average Block per Swing: 0.69 x Your Block Value

I added those up manually and got:

Block Passive: 114 (1.3 values)
Block Passive Critical: 52 (2.6 Values)
Shield Block: 96 (2.3 Values)
Shield Block Critical: 41 (4.6 Values)

Taking all counts time specified values I end up with 692.8

Total Hits + Blocks = 303 (blocks of various types) + 240 hits = 543

Average blocks per swing is correct, but not meaningful.

Average block / damaging blow though is: 1.2758

So what i thought was a bug is only one in the way your summing up your blocks.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:30 pm

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:Average blocks per swing is correct, but not meaningful.

Average block / damaging blow though is: 1.2758

So what i thought was a bug is only one in the way your summing up your blocks.

I guess? Is there a reason one is more meaningful than the other? I mean, I could probably change it in a few keystrokes. It's just the summary.

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:Ah, I see, the text is wrong but the values are correct, only difference is yours all reverence the untalented block value as 1, mine assumes talented value is 1...

Yeah, but this is a big deal. You're undervaluing the Paladin's block. You're saying a Shield Block doubles the block value, when really it takes it from 1.3 to 2.3 (only a ~76% increase). That's a big deal. It doubles the block value when neither have Shield Mastery/Spec, but obviously that will never be the case.

Garth.Gorefiend wrote:I do have to say that I do not understand the way your summarizing then. It looks like your summarizing based on text of the message, not on the value of the block.

That's because it was originally built to see how much Redoubt is worth at different avoidance levels. Originally, it had nothing to do with block value, but there was no reason for it to, as there were no block value modifying "procs" (like Shield Block and Critical Block in WotLK).

Basically, toggle on "Show Rolls." From this, you can tell how each outcome is reached, which has been the original intent of the simulator. It works just like a regular attack table. Obviously this allows for things like a roll in the passive block window during Shield Block, but that's why I added the "show effective blocks." You can see and ensure that the passive block during Shield Block is, indeed, blocking the correct amount of damage.

If I made it to be intuitive to effective blocks (a block during Shield Block is a BLOCK (SHIELD BLOCK) regardless of why), it wouldn't match the attack table just above it. Obviously, your block % wouldn't be close to what you typed in, because many (25%, actually) would be covered by Shield Blocks. Currently, you can be ensured that the attack table is working correctly because the avoidance and block values are virtually always close to the same as what you entered.

It's still somewhat useful, too. Like, what if you want to know how many blocks Shield Block actually accounts for? Obviously, you wouldn't want to count blocks that would have happened anyway due to your passive %.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:06 pm

yup, no problem, my numbers basically agree with yours.

effectively the reason I look at blks/damaging atk is becuase that was always the paladins strong point in TBC. It was always higher than a warriors, mostly because on single target it was always one and on multiple targets we had more charges.

In WotlK, a paladin cannot exceed 1.3 (your method), a warrior can.

For example when I run my version of the simulator, I get the following:

Stats: Miss 10.64%, Dodge 27.48%, Parry 15.64%, Blk 25.79% (pally 20.79)

100,000 attacks from a single target:

Warrior:

Misses: 10795
Dodges: 27661
Parrys: 15601
Blocks: 31648
Hits: 14295

Block Details:
Normal: 12593
Normal (Crit): 5314 (29.67%)
Shield Block: 9623
Shield Block (Crit): 4118 (29.96%)

Effective Blocks: 12593*1.3+ 5314*2.6 + 9623*2.3 + 4118*4.6 = 71,263

Damaging attacks: 45,943

Eff Blk/Dmg Atk: 1.551118

Paladin:

Misses: 10538
Dodges: 27453
Parrys: 15490
Blocks: 46519
Hits: 0

Eff Blk/Dmg Atk: 1.3

This assumes of course that 30% to BV talent works the same for paladins as it does for warriors.

Note the mitigation difference.
Last edited by Garath.Gorefiend on Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:19 pm

Alright, I just changed the effective block summary to work like yours. Is there anywhere specific you pulled those avoidance and block values from?
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:10 am

moduspwnens wrote:Alright, I just changed the effective block summary to work like yours. Is there anywhere specific you pulled those avoidance and block values from?


Yeah, basically they are a summary of what my Patch 3.0 set will give me at lvl 70 based on the changes I found in WowHead.

My simulator works off actual ratings (defense, dodge, parry, block...) and then adds talents to calculate avoidance stats.

That way I only have to press a button or two and I get the warrior in exact same gear. Really the only difference is in block % as in exact same gear warrior has 5% more block and the 4% difference in mitigation from talents.

Reason I did it that way was I was more interested in simulating actual mitigation between the two rather than just comparing block effectiveness
Last edited by Garath.Gorefiend on Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Exewu » Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:25 am

Just testing if I'm understanding this correctly, warrior shieldblock works like this?

untalanted blockvalue: 1000
with the +30% talent: 1300
a critical normal block: 2300
a block with shieldblock on: 2600
a critical block with shieldblock on: 4600

While my spreadsheet assumes:

untalanted blockvalue: 1000
with the +30% talent: 1300
a critical normal block: 2600
a block with shieldblock on: 2600
a critical block with shieldblock on: 5200

Macha wrote:
Mainly because paladins have slighlty less avoidance (difference in tier sets)


Why do people still say that? You can use non-tier set items, people. It's really not a problem.


Because, geez, I'd like to actually use my prot paladin set? Otherwise what's the point?
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:53 am

Exewu wrote:Just testing if I'm understanding this correctly, warrior shieldblock works like this?

untalanted blockvalue: 1000
with the +30% talent: 1300
a critical normal block: 2300
a block with shieldblock on: 2600
a critical block with shieldblock on: 4600

While my spreadsheet assumes:

untalanted blockvalue: 1000
with the +30% talent: 1300
a critical normal block: 2600
a block with shieldblock on: 2600
a critical block with shieldblock on: 5200

Macha wrote:
Mainly because paladins have slighlty less avoidance (difference in tier sets)


Why do people still say that? You can use non-tier set items, people. It's really not a problem.


Because, geez, I'd like to actually use my prot paladin set? Otherwise what's the point?


Critical normal block is 2600
Block with shield block is 2300

the rest is correct
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:30 am

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:Alright, I just changed the effective block summary to work like yours. Is there anywhere specific you pulled those avoidance and block values from?


Yeah, basically they are a summary of what my Patch 3.0 set will give me at lvl 70 based on the changes I found in WowHead.

My simulator works off actual ratings (defense, dodge, parry, block...) and then adds talents to calculate avoidance stats.

That way I only have to press a button or two and I get the warrior in exact same gear. Really the only difference is in block % as in exact same gear warrior has 5% more block and the 4% difference in mitigation from talents.

Reason I did it that way was I was more interested in simulating actual mitigation between the two rather than just comparing block effectiveness


Alright, but you're testing yourself with like, 75-80% of the attack table already full. That's alright, but don't you think it might be more accurate to test, say, your avoidance levels around 40%, then 50%, then 60%, then 70% rather than what you have at 70?

Also, I don't know if you're actually trying my simulator, but all you have to do is hit the Warrior/Paladin button after simulating the other class, and all the values from before are already entered.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:40 am

Thanks for the help Modus

Basically, what I am showing now that I have verified/modified my simulation to work like yours is the following:

Warriors tend to effectively block more damage than paladins do.

Rather than use 1.3 for a block I have normalized my numbers to 1.0 being a full talented block. All simulations are run using 100,000 attacks to take most of the randomness out.

Pure avoidance on both classes set at 53.76%
Block for warrior was at 25.79, 20.79 for paladin

Warrior Mechanic:
Mobs - Blks/Atk
1 - 1.19
3 - 1.19
5 - 1.19
10 - 1.19
20 - 1.19

The Paladin mechanic:
Mobs - Blks/Atk
1 - 1.0
3 - .99
5 - .94
10 - .82
20 - .75

Because the warrior mechanic is not charge based, it maintains a straight line benefit to mitigation. Exactly where the line is varies upon the quality of the gear but basically at raid level gear, it is greater than 1. The amount it contributes to mitigation is naturally highly dependent on the block value the warrior has and how hard the mobs are hitting.

If the mobs hit for less than full critical shield block value, then the benefit declines, but never drops below 1.

The paladin mechanic, since it is charge based, and has no crit capability, can never be greater than 1. As more mobs are added, the mechanic deteriorates as more and more normal hits get through.

When we combine this with the 4% edge in mitigation that warriors have over us, it paints a clear picture of warrior dominance in the mitigation department. Further, with the change to Paladin stamina scaling thru talents in the latest build they will have the edge in health as well.

Net of it is, that in the latest build, warriors have a large EH edge on us.

Combine that in AoE situations with their ability to slow the attack speed of twice as many mobs as us at once and the ability to reduce the damaging hits of all the mobs attacking them with Demo Shout and the differences in pure mitigation become extreme.
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Postby Macha » Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:17 am

Exewu wrote:Because, geez, I'd like to actually use my prot paladin set? Otherwise what's the point?


Nothing is preventing you from doing this. Since our set has, overall, better stats than the Paladin one, I don't see the issue.

@Topic:
Isn't critical block for warriors bugged, then, if it does not double the actual value? :S
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:57 am

Alright, but you're testing yourself with like, 75-80% of the attack table already full. That's alright, but don't you think it might be more accurate to test, say, your avoidance levels around 40%, then 50%, then 60%, then 70% rather than what you have at 70?

Also, I don't know if you're actually trying my simulator, but all you have to do is hit the Warrior/Paladin button after simulating the other class, and all the values from before are already entered.


I see no point in testing below uncrittable. And all my tests have been conducted with what our avoidance would be like after patch 3.0 hits.

But, lets assume, that all you have is uncrittable. So no dodge, parry or block rating. (keep in mind warriors always have 5% more block rating, which your simulator does not reflect by just changing classes)

All stats from single mob environment which portrays paladin in best light.

Base uncrit -41.17 Pure Avoidance (10.6 Miss, 14.97 Dodge, 15.6 Parry, 10.6 Blk/15.6 warrior)
Paladin: Blks/Atk: 0.76
Warrior: Blks/Atk: 0.83

Base uncrit with 10.02% Blk Rating:
Paladin: Blks/Atk: 0.89
Warrior: Blks/Atk: 1.00

Base uncrit with 20.04% Blk Rating:
Paladin: Blks/Atk: 1.0
Warrior: Blks/Atk: 1.16

50% Avoidance..Blk Rating maintained at zero
Paladin: Blks/Atk: 0.85
Warrior: Blks/Atk: 0.88

50% Avoidance..Blk Rating increased By 10.02%:
Paladin: Blks/Atk: 1.00
Warrior: Blks/Atk: 1.07

50% Avoidance..Blk Rating increased By 20.04%:
Paladin: Blks/Atk: 1.00
Warrior: Blks/Atk: 1.26

60% Avoidance..Blk Rating maintained at zero
Paladin: Blks/Atk: 1.0
Warrior: Blks/Atk: .95

60% Avoidance..Blk Rating increased By 10.02%:
Paladin: Blks/Atk: 1.00
Warrior: Blks/Atk: 1.19

60% Avoidance..Blk Rating increased By 20.04%:
Paladin: Blks/Atk: 1.00
Warrior: Blks/Atk: 1.44

Since I believe that in WotLK, pure avoidance levels will be much harder to stack, I don't see much reason to model more than 60% avoidance.

I would expect that tanks will be stacking more block rating if they can, especially warriors since it is now a very viable stat.

Note: I re-ran these numbers since I found out I had the Glyph of blocking accidently equipped...These have been updated to not include it, but the Glyph is highly effective.
Last edited by Garath.Gorefiend on Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:24 am

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:Rather than use 1.3 for a block I have normalized my numbers to 1.0 being a full talented block. All simulations are run using 100,000 attacks to take most of the randomness out.

Well, but I've been telling you, I don't think you can do it this way. If 1.0 is a full talented block for both classes, how many effective blocks is a block with Shield Block up? What about crits? This can really throw your numbers off.

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:I see no point in testing below uncrittable.

40% isn't necessarily crittable. 40% is the floor of being uncrittable. Yaknow, we raise our defense skill to 490 (or 540) to lower our chance to be crit by 5.6%. It's not that the crit rate is normally 5.6%, it's 5%. We're just applying the penalty of fighting a mob three levels above you (0.2% per level) to the character sheet, which assumes a level 70 opponent.

The avoidance levels work the same way. 490 (or 540) defense increases your chance to dodge by 5.6%, but you're fighting a mob three levels above you, so you have to subtract 0.6% from that value.

5% Base Miss, Dodge, Parry = 15% avoidance
5% Dodge, Parry from talents = 10% avoidance
5.6% Miss, Dodge, Parry from talents = 16.8% avoidance
-0.6% Miss, Dodge, Parry for fighting a ?? mob = -1.8%

At just hitting uncrittable (a task that is difficult without resilience pre-Naxx), you have 40% avoidance versus ??s. You also have have 10% block (15% for warriors).

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:And all my tests have been conducted with what our avoidance would be like after patch 3.0 hits.

Oh, well sure, then yeah, if our simulators match with those values then we've both probably programmed right and your results are right. I was specifically interested in tanking at different avoidance levels at 80, so I didn't use values from 70. I'd agree that Warriors block for more at high avoidance and block values (geared 70s), because the Paladin's strength (blocking more times for less value) is diminished as the passive avoidance and blocks of the tanks fill more of the attack table.

That said, I still want clarification on how you're handling blocks before I accept your numbers.

Macha wrote:Isn't critical block for warriors bugged, then, if it does not double the actual value? :S
Critical block actually doubles the value. The confusion comes when you say 100% increased block value is the same as doubling a block, but it is not.

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:I would expect that tanks will be stacking more block rating if they can, especially warriors since it is now a very viable stat.

Yeah, I was explaining in another thread that it offers more to warriors than Paladins and people weren't understanding, but it really seems to be the case.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:38 am

Well, but I've been telling you, I don't think you can do it this way. If 1.0 is a full talented block for both classes, how many effective blocks is a block with Shield Block up? What about crits? This can really throw your numbers off.


Conversion is quite easy and has been checked with the actual reports coming from warriors.

My method which relates to your displayed block value:

Base talented block = 1.0
talented block crit = 2.0
Base Shield block block = 1+1/1.3 = 1.76923
shield block crit = 2*(1+1/1.3) = 3.53846

Your method

Base talented block = 1.3
talented block crit = 2.6
Base Shield block block = 1+1/1.3 = 2.3
shield block crit = 2*(1+1/1.3) = 4.6

Comparative:

1.3/1.3 = 1
2.6/1.3=2
2.3/1.3=1.76923
4.6/1.3=3.53846

In other words, same numbers...just a variance in how we are reporting it.

The reason that you were saying we are about the same at certain points and warriors were in some cases worse, was you were not including their increased 5% to block.

You can tell by the scaling you see when I increase just block rating, that its very significant.

Anyways, have checked/rechecked cross-checked the numbers and am pretty satisfied that they are now correct.

Warrior block mechanic is simply better than ours now.

Have been experimenting with changes to ours to see if I can figure a way to fix it. But so far no luck. Frankly, what breaks our mechanic is the whole 'charges' concept.

Another thing I noticed. Reflective damage from warriors new damage shields scales better for them in AoE situations than our HS damage does. So their total threat generation actually improves more as they tank more mobs.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:48 am

But wait, your simulator doesn't do Redoubt, right?
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