Shield throw vs Brutallus

Kalecgos, Brutallus, Felmyst, M'uru, Entropius, Kil'jaeden

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Postby Worldie » Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:38 pm

The reason for which BL on pull is wrong is simple: warriors and mages get more DPS boost at <20% HP
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Postby fafhrd » Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:35 pm

Worldie wrote:The reason for which BL on pull is wrong is simple: warriors and mages get more DPS boost at <20% HP


you're skipping the several posts earlier about the warriors and mages not being the ones you heroism on the pull.

thankfully we're not in WotlK's terrible heroism implementation yet, and don't have to heroism the whole damn raid at the same time.
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Postby Worldie » Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:02 pm

You clearly don't run with 5 shamans do you? :s
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby QuantumDelta » Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:46 pm

We run with 4-5
Heroing at 95%, then again after 3 minutes for the melee, not quite sure what the dedicated caster group does for their second hero.

It's certainly never wasted on mages though, our warlocks do over 3k DPS on (rare) occasions with 2 heroisms.
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Postby Elsie » Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:30 pm

If they BW at 30s, then they do it again at 2:30 and again at 4:30. depending on how many lusts you have to spare, you start the last and work up to the earlier ones.
If they BW at 1:00 as you suggest, they do it again at 3:00 and at 5:00. That's ok if you're going to get a 5:30+ kill, but with today's gear you can do that with just 2 lusts anyway. If you're triple lusting you're probably trying for a 5min or less kill, in which case you can't wait till 1:00 for the first BW.

That's flawed though, since you're either running a non-optimal (5) amount of shaman or pulling a third lust from a DPS group that can already use it.
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Postby fafhrd » Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:29 pm

for brutallus we usually have 4 shamans, sometimes 5 (ideally 2 enhance, 3 resto, or enhance + elem + resto x3). if we were seriously trying for faster kills we'd certainly bring 5, not sure why you think that's flawed - faster kills was the point of this sub-thread (which admittedly is somewhat off-topic for the OP's question, sorry >.>). some guilds do it with 6 shamans.

pulling a third lust from a DPS group that can already use it is hardly a bad thing - you lust for the sake of higher raid dps, and if giving it to one group 3 times results in higher dps than giving it to 3 groups one time, you'd be silly to do the latter.

keep in mind that you're not necessarily lusting the entire group each time - for the 2nd or 3rd lust as long as communication is good you can swap out low-return classes like spriests, ferals and survival hunters for the secondary lusts on your rogues, bm hunters, fury warriors, mages (under 20...) and maybe warlocks, and then swap people back without losing more than a few seconds of group buffs.

edit: lol, just looked up recent kills. you could always do a 3:49 kill like inner sanctum and make it not worth double lusting hunters at all :)
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Postby Elsie » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:36 pm

My state was 5 is optimal. Sorry for the confusion on that.
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Postby Kezia » Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:41 pm

When I'm dpsing Brut on my hunter, we lust at either 4 or 2 minutes. The hunter group's usually stacked (feral druid tank, 3 BM hunters, agi totem) and I've pulled 3400 TPS. I blow all my CDs immediately on the pull, and then every 2 minutes after. Provided my feign isn't bugged or resisted, I'm almost unable to pull threat (though I get very, very close).

Lust should be done later on in the fight though. Hunters get it when we call for it, mages get it at 20%, and the melee (enh shaman, ret pally, 2 rogues, and usually the tank) get it around the 2 or 4 minute mark as well, I believe.
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Postby Candiru » Sun Sep 14, 2008 3:00 am

BL while HP > 20% means that you get him to 20% faster, giving more time at <20% so you still get a boost in DPS from those Execute abilities.
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Postby Worldie » Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:12 am

Candiru wrote:BL while HP > 20% means that you get him to 20% faster, giving more time at <20% so you still get a boost in DPS from those Execute abilities.

This makes no sense unless you kill him in < 40 seconds if you BL at 20%.
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halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Joanadark » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:48 am

I'm confused why someone would need 3 lusts except to set records, anyway. There's usually 3 full groups of DPS in this fight.


Not all DPS groups are equal.

If one DPS group produces a higher DPS increase through being given a lust, you give them ALL the lusts that are practicable.

Theres no such thing as fairness in min/maxing.

Atm I would never give my guild's warlock/spriest group a lust over our hunter group, because they simply cannot do nearly as much damage.
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Postby Zx » Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:20 am

If your hunters are out dpsing your locks at a min/max level then your locks suck pretty bad. They should be hitting an easy 2.6k dps in T6 gear and equivalent.

Same thing applies to hunter's ferocious inspiration. Yes, it stacks. But if you can give 3% x 5 people to some other dps who will use the extra more effectively then that is the way things should go instead of stacking groups for hunters.
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Postby Elsie » Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:50 am

Same thing applies to hunter's ferocious inspiration. Yes, it stacks. But if you can give 3% x 5 people to some other dps who will use the extra more effectively then that is the way things should go instead of stacking groups for hunters.


Hunter stacking is always more effective. Not only do you get more benefit (about 0.3% more group damage than individually), but you also would ruin the hunter's dps by putting him into a bad group. You would also ruin the dps/healing of whoever you replaced to get him in the 'other dps' group.
If you ever had a situation otherwise, you should replace the terrible hunter your guild brought.

Not all DPS groups are equal.
If one DPS group produces a higher DPS increase through being given a lust, you give them ALL the lusts that are practicable.
Theres no such thing as fairness in min/maxing.

My quote was in reference to 'personal dps' records. Sorry, I should've clarified. I don't think, on brutallus, there is ever a case - barring extreme gear discrepency - to triple lust a group. The only real exception I could see would be a triple glaive rogue group.
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