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Warriors and Paladins Block About the Same in Build 8905

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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:55 pm

Tev wrote:The only question I have is if warriors and paladins block the same over time (if in different ways, warriors can focus more when a burst is expected, paladins can keep it up all the time), then considering the current state, what still needs to be done to balance paladins, warriors, and other tanks? Its clear that Warriors are the base line tank, they are the mold that it followed and all other tanks need to be brought up to the level for base line tanking. Obviously other tank classes have their niche, but what needs to be done to make sure that the current trend of warriors for everything except niche fights will end?

Its been stated that they want every tank to be viable, so what has to change for paladins to keep that statement true? I'm asking because Warriors got their pass and it was a good one, but I look at things and it seems that paladins once again will need a good bit of work to bring up them up to par so to speak.

Any feedback/opinions?


Well with warrior AoE abilities now, they aren't going to be replaced in niche encounters if they are already the MT. So accordingly, we actually need some significant improvements to mitigation.

Given that we blocked more damage in TBC than warriors, and warriors generally took a couple more crushing blows, the mitigation gap has actually widened a bit. Now, don't go nuts, warriors have had multiple passes here and we have not, so that's to be expected. They also haven't done a numbers pass yet, so even if we get our next pass and we are still a bit behind, there should be tweaks.

That said, considering the way our gear is itemized I wouldn't be surprised if they derived a bit more mitigation from blocking for us. We may end up running with higher health, less avoidance, overall more damage intake, but a more steady rate of intake. I'm not sure that generally that's all that good, but if they vary the bosses up a bit, there's plenty of potential.

This is all speculation, somewhat educated, but still speculation.
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Postby moduspwnens » Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:27 pm

People seem to be using the word "viable" in different ways.

Paladins are viable on Live. Paladins have been viable for quite a while, in that Paladins can tank virtually every encounter. The problem is, we're perceived to be second or third choice for the majority of encounters. That's what I'm looking for them to address.
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:10 pm

moduspwnens wrote:People seem to be using the word "viable" in different ways.

Paladins are viable on Live. Paladins have been viable for quite a while, in that Paladins can tank virtually every encounter. The problem is, we're perceived to be second or third choice for the majority of encounters. That's what I'm looking for them to address.


Oh right, I didn't notice that Tev mentioned viability. We are probably viable right now, even without a second pass. We aren't balanced quite right yet, but until we are done, that's to be expected.
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Postby Tev » Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:46 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:People seem to be using the word "viable" in different ways.

Paladins are viable on Live. Paladins have been viable for quite a while, in that Paladins can tank virtually every encounter. The problem is, we're perceived to be second or third choice for the majority of encounters. That's what I'm looking for them to address.


Oh right, I didn't notice that Tev mentioned viability. We are probably viable right now, even without a second pass. We aren't balanced quite right yet, but until we are done, that's to be expected.


Maybe a bad choice of words, but I guess what I mean that warriors are 'The' viable tank for almost any encounter, with paladins and druids being less so save a few niche encounter. Now that warriors have gotten their pass, they are looking golden. They addressed their problem areas (especially with AoE) as well as bring them in line with what paladins had recieved in an earlier pass (Shield wall, unlinked, with a 5 min CD and 60% reduction, vs. paladins with a similar ability at 50%).

My point is given what we have now, and currently have in WotLK beta, what could/should be changed to bring paladins in line with warriors so that we wont suffer from the current class > skill syndrome that plagues many of us.

I may post some of my own thoughts on the issue but I'm still comparing the 2 classes so find out what we would need to be brought on line, keep us unique, and maybe keep a bit of an edge in some areas (like aoe, thought not as much as we have it now). I'm just curious to see if anyone else has taken a better in depth look and what their conclusions are.

Only thing I can think of atm is that there is a glaring mitigation gap that needs to be addressed.
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Postby Noradin » Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:06 am

What about the new patch?
Do warriors still have more avoidance and block for more/about the same than us?
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Postby moduspwnens » Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:17 am

Noradin wrote:What about the new patch?
Do warriors still have more avoidance and block for more/about the same than us?


These simulations have always assumed they have the same avoidance, so the answer to that question is in the Pally vs. Warrior Gear thread. With the new patch, as far as I know, nothing has actually changed. MMOChampion originally reported Redoubt was a 10/20/30% chance to get 10% block (which would have been a buff for single targets), but this isn't reflected in the in-game calculator or anywhere else, as far as I know.

It's still on MMOChampion's page, but anyway: If Redoubt & Shield Specialization haven't effectively changed (still 30% block value and 10% chance for 30% block chance over 10 seconds or 5 charges), then the results should be the same.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Postby InspiredOgre » Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:03 am

Ive been following this thread a while..... I played a pally back before we were considered anything but healy hands.

I leveled holy/prot. I struggled, I gnashed teeth, I was left in the dust by EVERYONE.... I LOVED IT.

Ive always been enamored with the idea of a thornadin.

It was only later, after BC, that I realized you cant really be a thornadin as a tank... Tanks want to never take damage from hits. Blocks (then) only mitigated a VERY small % of damage. I was sad, but I got good, I still had fun, I just ignored that I wasent thorny anymore.

Now, WotLK comes, and there is no more crushing blows, and Shield Block Values are multitudes higher.... I think, because of my history, I latched onto this, a shift from complete avoidance, to partial avoidance.

Im okay with taking damage, Im okay with it because it means more blocks, which means more thorny damage, and more threat, oh, and heals and mana to boot.

BUT, I know the truth now, even without crushing blows, hits hurt, and a tank getting hit less is more valuable to the healers. Our health pool is not really relevant, at least, from a healer's perspective.

So, what is there to do? I belive the critical block mechanics of the warrior should be ours, I think Holy Shield should increase our block value (Imagine the synergy btween HS and ShotR) by some amount (obviously not 100%, maybe 10%.

In order for the pally model to work, our shield blocks have to be a significant amount of mitigation.

I just dont think itll happen.

They have the block mechanics even over time (for the most part) So, they just need to give us the base mitigation of a warrior... (I belive we are lacking 4%?)

OR, is there some way for us to be equally viable without us being equally equal? Because certain amounts of block get pushed off the table, can differences in block rating or value really ever work?

So, if I am understanding this right, there are 3 possible answers...

1) Give us the warrior critical blocks, and/or increase the BV when HS is up. (Will this work on all levels of play to even us out?)

2) Leave as is (Blocking over time is about equal now) but make up the mitigation gap elsewhere

3) Something I/we arent seeing....

Lastly, has anyone posted this on the beta forums? Yes, they didnt do a numbers pass, and yes, our talent tree looks more like a talent trunk, but what they dont know, could hurt us. (Although, im sure they know, they just may not know that we know, you know?)
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Postby 2ndNin » Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:17 am

The other solution is to make Holy Shield more effective as a mitigation and threat mechanic.

Holy Shield: 8 Charges (++ talented if you want?): Grants +30% block while active (divorce the charges from the effect ideally), on a successful block consumes a charge absorbing an additional [25/50/100%] block value and dealing 50+[10/20/30/40/50]% of your block value as Holy damage to the attacking target.

Make the Holy shield our major block mechanic granting an actually appreciable block difference (block could be a major source of mitigation if it is present in very large amounts, by tying the major block though to the charges you can ensure that it is not overly powered in a multi-target environment as the charges will get eaten). Effectively at this it becomes:

On each hit reduces damage by [25/50/100]% of block damage and deals threat. Its a bit like a priest shield but with the effect spread over 10 hits.

If we assume that we will take post armour hits in the region of 5-15k again (top end being equivalent to Gruul at higher growths, or Teron crushing) then we can directly work out what kind of mitigation we would need to equal avoidance in effectiveness but in a clearly different way feeding into a very smooth mana return curve (what essentially feral tanks did in TBC).

Of course this mechanic unlike avoidance does not scale with hits, 1% avoidance on infinite 6000 hits is ~ 60damage reduction per hit, on 15000 hits its 150 or more than double its effectiveness while block would remain the same. Thus what could be worked in if wanted to give the same scaling to block is a properly scaling mechanic.

Redoubt: 30% chance to trigger "OMFG IMBA" block state, increases your block value by [last hit / Block Value * X]

allowing our blocks to actually scale with the content, taking it on the shield then becomes an effective mechanism as its no longer a fixed system, in effect giving us a block floor rather than block ceiling as currently exists (where higher block is so much more effective on many small hits than a single larger hit compared to avoidance).
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Postby Macha » Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:19 am

The other solution is to make Holy Shield more effective as a (...) threat mechanic.


NO. This will not go well. The more threat we have that only works when we are hit, the worse we are at offtanking and tanking casters..

Also, you are percieving "warriors block as much as we do" as a problem. It is not. It is good.
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Hrm

Postby Mavrix » Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:07 am

Yes, I'd agree that pro-active threat moves are much to be preferred rather than reflective/reactive threat mechanics.

I'd also agree that they're not done working on us yet, but definitely do hope they get it right so none of the tank classes is the second class citizen since there has already been and still is way too much of that going on (esp. if they really want to remove "niche" tanking roles . . . though doesn't it seem that encounter design will be less varied if there are no niches?).
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Re: Hrm

Postby Macha » Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:41 am

Mavrix wrote:though doesn't it seem that encounter design will be less varied if there are no niches?).


The reverse actually. If every tank cannot do everything, encounter design is limited by the expected tanks avaible.
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Re: Hrm

Postby Mavrix » Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:59 am

Macha wrote:
Mavrix wrote:though doesn't it seem that encounter design will be less varied if there are no niches?).


The reverse actually. If every tank cannot do everything, encounter design is limited by the expected tanks avaible.


You make a point. Previously with niche tanks there was at least some impetus to design fights around those niches. It also never seemed as though blizzard limited their raid designs to what some/most/all guilds would have available in their stables, but instead expected guilds to design their stables around content.

Maybe you are right and now we'll see the designers throwing all kinds of variety at us since every tank has basically the same capabilities. Hopefully we can depend on developers frequently breaking away from formulaic design and staying highly creative even though it will be more work for them. They are a creative bunch and do great work, after all.
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Postby Taras » Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:58 pm

Macha wrote:
The other solution is to make Holy Shield more effective as a (...) threat mechanic.


NO. This will not go well. The more threat we have that only works when we are hit, the worse we are at offtanking and tanking casters..

Also, you are percieving "warriors block as much as we do" as a problem. It is not. It is good.


Keep in mind that "block as much as we do" in the context of this simulation presumes that the warrior spams it automatically every time it's up, which GC already stated they want to avoid. So if the warrior saves it as a baby shield wall, there's a direct price to pay in reduced mitigation.

In threat sensitive fights, a warrior would probably use it like a Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker, which again suggests withholding it until the right moment and paying a mitigation penalty.

Not that there's anything wrong with the flexibility that those two strategies bring, but both involve a spikier health bar.
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Postby Exewu » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:45 am

I actually have different conclusions than you. I found that for similar gear paladins mitigate a lot less melee damage than warriors. Mainly because paladins have slighlty less avoidance (difference in tier sets) and RF is only 6% while warrior's defensive stance is 10%.

http://rapidshare.com/files/144372560/M ... k.xls.html

linky to the spreadsheet.
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Postby Sartor » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:57 am

Tisiphone wrote:http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=2565


Buff:
Shield Block
Block chance and block value increased by 100% for next attack.
10 seconds remaining


Outdated!

Now blocks ALL attacks for 5 seconds, and increase all damage blocked by 100%. ;)

*cough* check the stickies *cough*
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