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Shield throw vs Brutallus

Kalecgos, Brutallus, Felmyst, M'uru, Entropius, Kil'jaeden

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Shield throw vs Brutallus

Postby Akonda » Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:22 pm

Is this a stupid idea while tanking Brutallus? Or if I am smart about it...

1. I don't use it during or just before a stomp.
2. I don't use it unless I just taunted and wait about 6 seconds for the healers to transition. Also I assume its the safest time because I have zero magma slice debuffs.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but after having seen Brutallus once being holy specc'd, I had to fill in for our feral. I pushed 2k DPS on the fight, and my goal is to now make the feral the sit in....is this TPS ridiculously low for a pally tank on brutallus, and would AS help my overall TPS that much more. My warlocks said they could go balls out while I had aggro, and because I was building so much threat, they could go balls out with the other tank tanking and be just fine until it came my turn again.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:37 pm

Cast time is way too long, and it will get you killed. Spamming RF when you have spare GCDs will give you a nice little threat boost.
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Postby Akonda » Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:42 pm

Oh, I didn't think of that. It was my first night of getting used to all the timers and such. I'll keep that in mind for tomorrow thanks.
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Postby Cakes » Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:32 am

AS and Holy Wrath are saved for the intervals where you aren't tanking. As fuzzy mentioned, it's suicide to try AS when he's focused on you. Some bosses you can get away with it, but this guy isn't one of them :P

*Subject to change in the next patch, where AS becomes instant.
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Postby Worldie » Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:24 am

What's this shield you people talk about.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

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Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:51 am

It's what some paladins use to pull so people can bloodlust and pop trinkets and cooldowns .00347829 seconds into the pull.
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Postby Worldie » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:53 am

Bloodlust on pull = WRONG WRONG WRONG
Total waste of DPS.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:32 am

I exaggerate for comedy.

The 2min trinkets and CDs is about right tho.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:39 am

Actually, come to think of it, I think a few of our Shaman do BL on pull in certain situations. E.g., lawlheroics, or in ZA (BL on pull in Eagle means it'll probably be up before Bear is Dead; we're plowing through so quickly sometimes it's not, anymore).

We lust on the pull on Illidan; It's back up towards the end of the fight.

Some classes that aren't boss-HP level dependent for increased DPS get lusted during the fight sometimes; mages tend to get lusted at 20% during, say, brut.

We also lust pretty much right after my shield hits RoS.p3, come to think.

So no, I don't think BL on pull is always wrong, nor is it always a total waste of DPS.
Last edited by fuzzygeek on Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby fafhrd » Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:10 am

what's wrong with BL on pull? as long as no-one is lazy about getting sunders, curses and FF up, and threat isn't an issue it's not a waste of DPS.

it depends on what classes you're lusting of course.

I supposed you could argue for "BL 10s after pull" being better, just to make sure all debuffs are up and threat is decent on brut (on teron though, f'that, lust as soon as DPS is in position).
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Postby Elsie » Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:58 am

BLing on pull tends to cause problems since DPS damage spikes harder than tank TPS. BL is much stronger later in the fight when threat reducing abilities have more significance, and DPS can more safely stack their other CDs.

ie, ~2 minutes and 4 minutes in are ideal. DPS can use their 2min CDs freely at the start and retain them for BL. 3min CDs can be used then at 2/5min. One might argue 1, 3, and 5 minutes in if you're insane enough to triple lust a group.

It doesn't really matter what group you lust since, regardless, all threat reducing abilities are stronger later than sooner. Also, not all groups are composed entirely of rogue/hunters. Threat reducing abilities can also be resisted and take a precious GCD you don't want to use during lust. Safety is of primary concern for a tank here.

To the OP question: You're far too likely to get rofl-gibbed. Use it to increase your 'off-time' dps and drop mana before you taunt.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:07 pm

Elsie wrote:BLing on pull tends to cause problems since DPS damage spikes harder than tank TPS. BL is much stronger later in the fight when threat reducing abilities have more significance, and DPS can more safely stack their other CDs.


The point of my (initially) humorous response to Worldi was that DPS can go balls out right away when opening with AS. Of course it's situational and of course it's not always the best thing to do. But it's not always WRONG WRONG WRONG.

For certain boss fights BL requires intelligent management. For other fights, by the time BL is done the boss is dead.

But my initial point -- that AS provides nice snap aggro -- stands. I give warriors shit all the time for not having Imp Blood Rage so they can't open with Shield Slam; when I tried to run 40/21 for a while, I hated not being able to generate a lot of front-loaded threat. My DPS, who have gotten conditioned to popping CDs on pull over the last year I've been tanking for them, hated it too.

Oh well. Different strokes for different folks.
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Postby fafhrd » Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:38 pm

Elsie wrote:BLing on pull tends to cause problems since DPS damage spikes harder than tank TPS. BL is much stronger later in the fight when threat reducing abilities have more significance, and DPS can more safely stack their other CDs.

ie, ~2 minutes and 4 minutes in are ideal. DPS can use their 2min CDs freely at the start and retain them for BL. 3min CDs can be used then at 2/5min. One might argue 1, 3, and 5 minutes in if you're insane enough to triple lust a group.

It doesn't really matter what group you lust since, regardless, all threat reducing abilities are stronger later than sooner. Also, not all groups are composed entirely of rogue/hunters. Threat reducing abilities can also be resisted and take a precious GCD you don't want to use during lust. Safety is of primary concern for a tank here.

To the OP question: You're far too likely to get rofl-gibbed. Use it to increase your 'off-time' dps and drop mana before you taunt.


Again, I'd beg to differ on the "whether it matters what group you're lusting or not" point. On brutallus for example, hunters will be poping all cooldowns 30s into the fight regardless, unless a feign resists (and resists for all the hunters at the same time is unlikely), then popping all but one again at 2:30 and all of them again at 4:30. The last two sets you can of course lust safely. If you've got a extra shaman around, the first one can pretty safely be lusted too, since as long as it's not depriving fire mages of a sub 20% lust it's unlikely there's a larger raid DPS boost to be had from its use elsewhere.

If you are using a feral tank, it's likely you're lusting+double drumming him that first time too, so threat isn't all that bad for the hunters grouped with him.

And again on a fight as short as teron, you might as well lust on the pull and just try to keep it up for the whole fight - personally we've never managed that though, but others have.
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Postby Elsie » Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:01 pm

Again, I'd beg to differ on the "whether it matters what group you're lusting or not" point. On brutallus for example, hunters will be poping all cooldowns 30s into the fight regardless, unless a feign resists (and resists for all the hunters at the same time is unlikely), then popping all but one again at 2:30 and all of them again at 4:30. The last two sets you can of course lust safely. If you've got a extra shaman around, the first one can pretty safely be lusted too, since as long as it's not depriving fire mages of a sub 20% lust it's unlikely there's a larger raid DPS boost to be had from its use elsewhere.

Or you can wait for ~2min in where all hunters will have had at least 2 feign deaths, greatly reducing the likelihood of pulling aggro which is almost an auto-wipe on brutallus. Even in your example, 1 minute in is better. you still get 3 sets of CDs and feign death removes more threat for a bigger dps window.
I'm confused why someone would need 3 lusts except to set records, anyway. There's usually 3 full groups of DPS in this fight.

You have a set amount of time on brutallus that is very hard to significantly alter (barring lots of warglaives). As such, you will basically have 3 windows open that can be started anywhere from 0.1 to 1 minute in the fight to use CDs. There's no sense in forcing a suboptimal use of threat wipe moves.

Teron isn't in sunwell so I won't go into that fight. It's also significantly shorter (ie, there's more overgear).
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Postby fafhrd » Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:27 pm

Oh, I wasn't saying anyone needs 3 lusts :) No 4+ minute fight currently is tuned tightly enough to require that much dps, this is purely maximizing DPS for it's own sake. If you have a lust for the melee and a lust for the mages, most raids will not find a better use for the remaining lusts than a group with 2 or more BM hunters. However lusting them is only worth it while BW is up:

If they BW at 30s, then they do it again at 2:30 and again at 4:30. depending on how many lusts you have to spare, you start the last and work up to the earlier ones.
If they BW at 1:00 as you suggest, they do it again at 3:00 and at 5:00. That's ok if you're going to get a 5:30+ kill, but with today's gear you can do that with just 2 lusts anyway. If you're triple lusting you're probably trying for a 5min or less kill, in which case you can't wait till 1:00 for the first BW.

If a hunter ends up threat capped early on, the shaman switches his GoA to TA for a while if the feral isn't tanking at the time.

For referrence, the fastest brut kill i've seen posted was ~4:25 iirc, and that was quite a while back, so in that case if you wanted to triple-lust a group you'd do the first BW literally on the pull :P Would probably have to start with TA instead GoA in that case though.

edit: stupid smiley images
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