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Uphill battle to tank Twins

Kalecgos, Brutallus, Felmyst, M'uru, Entropius, Kil'jaeden

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Postby Ankiseth » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:04 am

Dragonzbane wrote:I was making adjustments during the fight and by the last several attempts I clearly had the rotation down and was owning the agro list from start to finish.


In a case like that then, that is evidence your raid leader SHOULD realize.

Dragonzbane wrote:1) I had no MDs for the first 6 attempts and then later on the 11th attempt while the warrior had MDs on all of the attempts.

2) The hunter MDing the warrior was insanely fast with his MDs. Macro, maybe? He often had two shots off before my Hunter had 1 of his shots off.


Have you brought this up with your raid leader? With the hunters. Don't start with "AMG, U R BAD AT MD" but maybe ask them about it.
I can't remember if you're doing reverse or not... But in the case of us, our melee doesn't even go in until first Shadow Blades usually... so it's a moot point at MD speed.

Dragonzbane wrote:3) I took 6 Crushing blows, the warrior took 28. The 2 warriors both took more and more Crushing blows on the following days (makes sense).

4) I block for 100 more damage per block and mitigation 4.5% more Damage overall.

The first bit is another point to bring up with your raid leader. it's usually the reason WHY guilds consider pally tanks for this fight. However, it could also be a function of boss tanking time and raid wipe time. If you tank 1/3 as much as him, as well, as say, him eating confound/crushing(ask others. it happens) then these numbers can be artificially inflated.

The second... citing overall damage is HIGHLY HIGHLY misleading. Cite average damage per hit. Because since the warrior starts off the fight, unless you have a nice 50/50 split somehow, there will always be SOMEONE who tanks for longer.

If someone doesn't do something. Don't sit there and later say "oh, he didn't do this for me". Be PROACTIVE in getting buffs/stuff done. "I need a MD" is not a crime to say.
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Postby Dragonzbane » Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:26 am

Ankiseth wrote:
Dragonzbane wrote:3) I took 6 Crushing blows, the warrior took 28. The 2 warriors both took more and more Crushing blows on the following days (makes sense).

4) I block for 100 more damage per block and mitigation 4.5% more Damage overall.

The first bit is another point to bring up with your raid leader. it's usually the reason WHY guilds consider pally tanks for this fight. However, it could also be a function of boss tanking time and raid wipe time. If you tank 1/3 as much as him, as well, as say, him eating confound/crushing(ask others. it happens) then these numbers can be artificially inflated.


Well, over the course of the night I took ~90 less hits, just under 600 total so even the average crushes per hit is in my favor. There were crushes outside of confounding also one specific attempt it lead to a wipe and a couple more that it was most likely a mitigating factor in the eventual wipe. Then there was the attempt that he conflagged me while I was MTing because he didn't move away in time.


Ankiseth wrote:The second... citing overall damage is HIGHLY HIGHLY misleading. Cite average damage per hit. Because since the warrior starts off the fight, unless you have a nice 50/50 split somehow, there will always be SOMEONE who tanks for longer.


Well, the high, low and average were higher.
I'm blocking more often and have higher block value so...

My gear is better than the Arms warrior who respec'd to tank the fight.
He has a pretty good set of gear mind you and is prot half the week.
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Postby Dragonzbane » Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:00 am

So I finally got a chance to talk with the RL last night before our raid.

I'm getting the basic impression that it was mostly an issue of bad communication.

He wants me in the fight tanking as do some others. He acknowledged the MD issue and said he'd take care of that, he also acknowledged that fact that the MDs I did get were slower.

He told me that the warrior I was replaced with was taking a lot of damage and that he got destroyed several times during their nights of attempts. He acknowledged the fact that I was getting crushed less and taking less damage. He then brought up the fact that it seems that once I have agro everything seems to stick to me from then on and is almost impossible to rip from me. Which leads me to believe that he has been looking over the data in the WWS and that our GM mentioned things to him about the 2 hour conversation she and I had.


This is the guy who gave me my first shot at raiding in Gruul's and then to Mags and our first couple bosses in TK and SSC. He pushed for me to get work in all of those fights sometimes against the odds and opinions.

Interestingly both he and our GM admitted that the guild would not have gotten to where it is if it was for me and the work I put in for the guild from tanking, to strats, to ideas etc.

I of course am not really willing to go that far and a lot of what I bring to the table comes from knowledge I've gained being here on maintankadin and talking to you guys.
On top of that we have a very solid group of players and try to keep a friend/family kind of atmosphere to keep the amount of drama to a minimum. Afterall, these are the folks that for the most part wanted me to have the first Tempest of Chaos that dropped (I was tops in DKP but still).
For as little as we raid we've done pretty well on progression so far, only 13 hours a week and on Mu'ru.


Anyway, he mentioned that they changed the strat and positioning some from when I first was in and he thinks that it played a big part in getting the kill. With that he said I wants me in the fight this week but either as Holy or Ret so I can see the big picture and experience the differences outside of a tanking role.

Most likely I'll be going in as Ret this week because I/they think my Ret gear is slightly better than my Holy gear. Any tips here?

He then asked me to figure out whatever I could to put out as much threat as I can at the very start of the fight, cooldowns, rotations, gear, whatever and that the other warrior was spamming rage pots during the fight.
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Postby Elsie » Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:34 am

Man, last time the RL mentioned how much I contributed previously was just to 'make me feel better' that he was shooting me down.

Sounds like he was under other pressures though. A lot of time RL is more about management skills and interpersonal communication. Can't be in every fight all the time. Other people get shots, etc, all part of the delicate balance they go insane for. Sounds like, in the end, he's being reasonable.
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Postby PsiVen » Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:39 pm

What do you mean with all these MD changes? If misdirects after the initial pull are going anywhere but whoever is second on aggro at the time, your hunters are doing it wrong. Your "goal" should be to rip aggro off the other tank as soon as possible, and so should his.

Twins is stressful for guild leadership because it's a fight with a strange raid composition and where people will wipe you all night long through the dumbest mistakes you can imagine. The last thing your RL wants to hear is "but you didn't give me a chance!" There should be at least some thread on your guild forums for discussing the fights, so post there your experiences each night on progression and what you think could be improved.

Btw, the way we make these decisions in tank chat:
"Who wants to sit for Twins?"
"Dibs"
"Ooh pick me"
"Aww dammit"
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Postby Tisiphone » Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:44 pm

I see you're fond on writing walls of text. I got to the part where you said they killed Twins for the first time.

Now here's my advice. What works, doesn't need to be fixed.
That's the sole reason I don't ask my guild to let me tank Brutallus. They kill him without me easily, so it can't get "better", can it?

In fact, I wasn't there on our guild's first Twins kill either. I was there on the first night, did everything perfectly, raided 3 hours after raid time till my eyes couldn't take it anymore, cleared the trash 3 times and almost beat it down, but we had to end it for that night. The next day they went there and nearly one-shotted them, and I don't even get a bloody thanks.

It's a mentality of being in a guild, try to take it lightly.



On a side note, I don't see how this fits in Sunwell strategy section. It's more of a social discussion than anything related with strategy.
Like they say, bind all buttons to FoL and just roll your head over the keyboard.
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Postby inthedrops » Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:42 pm

Tisiphone wrote:I see you're fond on writing walls of text. I got to the part where you said they killed Twins for the first time.

Now here's my advice. What works, doesn't need to be fixed.
That's the sole reason I don't ask my guild to let me tank Brutallus. They kill him without me easily, so it can't get "better", can it?

In fact, I wasn't there on our guild's first Twins kill either. I was there on the first night, did everything perfectly, raided 3 hours after raid time till my eyes couldn't take it anymore, cleared the trash 3 times and almost beat it down, but we had to end it for that night. The next day they went there and nearly one-shotted them, and I don't even get a bloody thanks.

It's a mentality of being in a guild, try to take it lightly.


Well said. This was kind of what I thought when I read the OP too.
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Postby Afraithe » Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:21 am

Meh, attentionseeker.

You screwed up repeatedly, got replaced. Also, when you get a bit into progress on a boss, you really do want to switch out as few ppl as possible.

I sure as hell never got any MD on twins, only the Warrior tank gets it (and he usually starts). I usually pass the Warrior on around 50% of the mob or so.
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Postby Joanadark » Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:20 am

Afraithe wrote:Meh, attentionseeker.

You screwed up repeatedly, got replaced. Also, when you get a bit into progress on a boss, you really do want to switch out as few ppl as possible.

I sure as hell never got any MD on twins, only the Warrior tank gets it (and he usually starts). I usually pass the Warrior on around 50% of the mob or so.


And here I was attempting to be tactful...



I never got MDs on Twins, even on progress. Especially on progress. The raid leaders and all the other tanks were worried sick that the twin would never even touch them at all, misdirect or not, because I'd rip it off them too fast.
We bring 3 hunters, and one misdirect goes to the warlock tank, and the other two get chained on the warrior tank who is *supposed* to open.
I get complaints all the time that my first Exorcism completely cancels out the misdirect on the warrior.
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Postby Afraithe » Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:08 am

The whole thing with Reverse twins is that most will be threat capped in P1, so actually, threat should not be much of a problem either way.

Yeah I've had some times where my Exorcism crit just at start and the warrior goes "Wtf?".

I always save wings if I should get way behind for some reason or an early conflag.

If someone would whine away at all the officers and spend hours talking about being skipped over, I would make sure that person is kicked, officers have more important stuff to put their time on.

And if your not happy with your current guild, look for another.
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Postby Worldie » Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:52 am

Joanadark wrote:
Afraithe wrote:Meh, attentionseeker.

You screwed up repeatedly, got replaced. Also, when you get a bit into progress on a boss, you really do want to switch out as few ppl as possible.

I sure as hell never got any MD on twins, only the Warrior tank gets it (and he usually starts). I usually pass the Warrior on around 50% of the mob or so.


And here I was attempting to be tactful...



I never got MDs on Twins, even on progress. Especially on progress. The raid leaders and all the other tanks were worried sick that the twin would never even touch them at all, misdirect or not, because I'd rip it off them too fast.
We bring 3 hunters, and one misdirect goes to the warlock tank, and the other two get chained on the warrior tank who is *supposed* to open.
I get complaints all the time that my first Exorcism completely cancels out the misdirect on the warrior.

That was our issue when i used to start on them. Then we just have me second, even if the other tank is a druid. I catch him in 20-30 seconds top.
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Postby Dragonzbane » Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:10 am

First I was dropping this thread but since you guys kept it going.


Afraithe wrote:Meh, attentionseeker.

You screwed up repeatedly, got replaced. Also, when you get a bit into progress on a boss, you really do want to switch out as few ppl as possible.


I know I write a lot but did you even read?

By the last few attempts I had the fight down perfectly.
She was on me from the second I hit the platform until we wiped, aside from confounding and even then she was still attacking several times.


Afraithe wrote:I sure as hell never got any MD on twins, only the Warrior tank gets it (and he usually starts). I usually pass the Warrior on around 50% of the mob or so.



If it took you til "around 50% of the mob or so" you would have been replaced from my raid.

Hell, I'm doing much better than you are, as I said above.
At the very worst I had the agro lead at the first confound.
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Postby Dragonzbane » Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:28 am

Afraithe wrote:The whole thing with Reverse twins is that most will be threat capped in P1, so actually, threat should not be much of a problem either way.


Well maybe my guild has higher standards, realistic or not.


Afraithe wrote:If someone would whine away at all the officers and spend hours talking about being skipped over, I would make sure that person is kicked, officers have more important stuff to put their time on.


There's a difference between whining and being correct and explaining why.

BTW: We talked for a while but less than half was about the Twins.
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Postby Dragonzbane » Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:37 am

Joanadark wrote:And here I was attempting to be tactful...


And that's a good thing.
Here he was being an ass and I was performing better in my attmepts than he still is.
That leads me to draw a few conclusions...


Joanadark wrote:I never got MDs on Twins, even on progress. Especially on progress. The raid leaders and all the other tanks were worried sick that the twin would never even touch them at all, misdirect or not, because I'd rip it off them too fast.
We bring 3 hunters, and one misdirect goes to the warlock tank, and the other two get chained on the warrior tank who is *supposed* to open.
I get complaints all the time that my first Exorcism completely cancels out the misdirect on the warrior.


That's a great story.
It might have actually been helpful too, if you talked about your rotation, gear or even consumables.

I saw attempts where opening with Exorcism only gave me a full resist and a JoR + Consecrate wasn't enough to rip agro right off the bat.

/shrug
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Postby Afraithe » Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:22 pm

Uh, well... the only reason I really pull him off around 50% is cause I need to get some mana back, not cause I can not do it before that, otherwise there isn't really much use switching tanks all the time, I stay just below the Warriors threat and it works fine. It is more efficient for the Warrior tank to keep tanking since he has armor buffs up etc. So he might take a few crushings, as a healer (and I have healed on that fight as well) it doesn't matter really, you max rank all the time anyway.
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