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Stacking Threat Modifiers

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Stacking Threat Modifiers

Postby Arcand » Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:02 pm

Improved Righteous Fury increases threat from holy damage by 90%.
Holy Shield damage generates 35% additional threat.
Assume for simplicity that I do 100 Holy Shield damage.

Do the modifiers multiply, like this:
100 x 1.9 x 1.35 = 257 threat

Or do they add, like this?
100 + (0.9x100) + (0.35x100) = 225 threat

(I want to base some theorycraft on this, so if you post an answer please support it with evidence. If you have an opinion or an intuitive sense that it's one way or the other, all you will do is confuse my baseball-sized brain.)
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Postby Lore » Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:07 pm

I believe everything these days is multiplicative. They went through and nerfed a bunch of stuff a while ago to make up for it.

I know that's not exactly solid proof, but it's all I got :P
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Postby Vanifae » Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:12 pm

Yeah it isn't additive, I know that for sure.
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Postby Arcand » Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:15 pm

What convinced you that it can't be additive?

(Going to day care to pick up my zergling, can't reply for a while - but will get back in here as soon as life permits.)
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Postby Vanifae » Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:18 pm

Arcand wrote:What convinced you that it can't be additive?

(Going to day care to pick up my zergling, can't reply for a while - but will get back in here as soon as life permits.)

Only thing that is additive I beleive is Righteous Fury, everything else is multiplicative at least according to WoWWiki...

http://www.wowwiki.com/Threat

Code: Select all
Threat Auras stack in a multiplicative fashion.

The only known exceptions to the general multiplicative behavior are the Improved Righteous Fury and Feral Instinct talents. Feral Instinct is additive with Bear Form's modifier for a 1.45x total bonus (instead of 1.495x if multiplied). The increase from Improved Righteous Fury is multiplied only with the bonus of Righteous Fury (.6x), rather than the full multiplier (1.6x).

Example 1: You are a Warrior in Berserker Stance (.8x threat generated) and are effected by Blessing of Salvation (.7x threat generated):
Your total threat reduction would be: 0.8*0.7=0.56 or 56% of threat generated - a total of 44% threat reduction.

Example 2: You are a Paladin casting a heal (.5x healing done). For healing, Paladins also have an innate threat reduction (.5x). Consider that Righteus Fury is active (1.6x threat generated), and you have the talents for Improved Righteus Fury (RF is now 1.9x threat generated):
Your healing threat would be: .5 * .5 * (1 + (0.6 * 1.5) ) = .25 * (1.9) = .475x healing done.
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Postby jere » Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:53 pm

Patch 1.12

Threat Reduction Effects

* This system has been redesigned to eliminate inconsistency in how the effects work. Previously, some were additive (for example: 30% reduction + 20% reduction = 50% reduction) while others were multiplicative (30% reduction and 20% reduction made 44% reduction, from 0.7*0.8). They are now all multiplicative. This also prevents unpredictable behavior when the total reduction percentage was equal to or greater than 100%. Please note that in almost all cases, when stacking multiple threat reduction effects you will experience less threat reduction than previously.


From Blizzard's website:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnot ... h1p12.html

If threat reduction is multiplicative, I would guess that threat increasers are are multiplicative. Most all threat meters assume this as well.
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Postby Joanadark » Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:24 pm

I could have sworn I had a whole section on this in Mysterious Ways....

maybe it got lost somehow in the reposting...


anyway, all Reductive Threat Modifiers are multiplicative.
All Positive Threat Modifiers are additive.
Positive Damage Modifiers and Positive Threat Modifiers are multiplicative with each other.

Example: Holy Shield
Imp Holy Shield, 1-handed Specialization, and Sanctity Aura aree all additive with each other.

35% threat modifier on Holy Shield is additive with Righteous Fury.

The two additive categories are multiplicative with each other.
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Postby jere » Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:15 am

Joanadark wrote:Example: Holy Shield
Imp Holy Shield, 1-handed Specialization, and Sanctity Aura aree all additive with each other.



That's really odd, because when I run the calculations with them being multiplicative, it gives me the numbers I have.

I use the equation:

(base + 0.05*dmg)*1.2*1.05 for my holy shield and the numbers come out to be what I have.

Am I misunderstanding what you mean by additive? I would understand additive to be:
(base + 0.05*dmg)*(1 + .2 + .05)

But that equation gives me values that don't match what damage I put out.

I just tested for various values of spell dmg.

I got:

250 spell dmg ==> 211 HS dmg
361 spell dmg ==> 218 HS dmg
490 spell dmg ==> 226 HS dmg

Those values match what I get using multiplicative modifiers, but not additive.
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Postby Prepared » Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:13 am

I thought the golden rule was: "All positive effects are additive, all negative effects are multiplicative."

IE, you can stack five +100% auras of something, and reach +500% of that, but if you add five -100% auras, you can never, ever reach -0%, or negative percentages.

Which is why Talents + Blessing of Salvation + Tranquil Air x2 will never = 0 threat. It's still something like 15% or so.
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Postby corc » Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:24 am

jere wrote:
Joanadark wrote:Example: Holy Shield
Imp Holy Shield, 1-handed Specialization, and Sanctity Aura aree all additive with each other.



That's really odd, because when I run the calculations with them being multiplicative, it gives me the numbers I have.

I use the equation:

(base + 0.05*dmg)*1.2*1.05 for my holy shield and the numbers come out to be what I have.

Am I misunderstanding what you mean by additive? I would understand additive to be:
(base + 0.05*dmg)*(1 + .2 + .05)

But that equation gives me values that don't match what damage I put out.

I just tested for various values of spell dmg.

I got:

250 spell dmg ==> 211 HS dmg
361 spell dmg ==> 218 HS dmg
490 spell dmg ==> 226 HS dmg

Those values match what I get using multiplicative modifiers, but not additive.


are you talking threat or spell damage?

if you had a 200% threat from HS proc, 211 dam would be 422 threat. That "200%" multiplier is what is discussed I believe.

The sun will rise soon, and I'm about to go to bed very late, so I might be reading you incorrectly myself :P
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Postby Prepared » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:17 am

corc wrote:are you talking threat or spell damage?

if you had a 200% threat from HS proc, 211 dam would be 422 threat. That "200%" multiplier is what is discussed I believe.

The sun will rise soon, and I'm about to go to bed very late, so I might be reading you incorrectly myself :P


They're talking total damage, but they're giving different sets of spell damage to show how the math is scaling. Namely:

+5% One-handed weapon spec
+20% Imp. Holy Shield

Which should be +25% damage to Holy Shield, after spell damage is counted in.
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Postby jere » Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:19 pm

corc wrote:
jere wrote:
Joanadark wrote:Example: Holy Shield
Imp Holy Shield, 1-handed Specialization, and Sanctity Aura aree all additive with each other.



That's really odd, because when I run the calculations with them being multiplicative, it gives me the numbers I have.

I use the equation:

(base + 0.05*dmg)*1.2*1.05 for my holy shield and the numbers come out to be what I have.

Am I misunderstanding what you mean by additive? I would understand additive to be:
(base + 0.05*dmg)*(1 + .2 + .05)

But that equation gives me values that don't match what damage I put out.

I just tested for various values of spell dmg.

I got:

250 spell dmg ==> 211 HS dmg
361 spell dmg ==> 218 HS dmg
490 spell dmg ==> 226 HS dmg

Those values match what I get using multiplicative modifiers, but not additive.


are you talking threat or spell damage?

if you had a 200% threat from HS proc, 211 dam would be 422 threat. That "200%" multiplier is what is discussed I believe.

The sun will rise soon, and I'm about to go to bed very late, so I might be reading you incorrectly myself :P


I was talking about damage in that example as I was going off of his quote about 1H specialization, imp. HS, etc.

Back when I was first testing omen out, I found that it seemed to treat all threat multipliers as multiplicative and it's numbers pretty much matched ktm's.

By multiplicative I mean: Holy_Shield_Dmg*1.35*1.9.

However, threat meters are not necessarily 100% correct, but they seem to work well enough. Still I have never seen anywhere where it explicitely says that threat modifiers are additive (or multiplicative for that matter). Has anyone got a blizzard based source for that or are we all just guessing really?

I would be inclined to believe that all the modifiers are primarily multiplicative with some exceptions being additive, as that is how most of the reduction systems work and even some of the positive systems as well (haste is multiplicative, not additive, according to blizzard).

Does anyone have a viable source for either way?
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Postby Joanadark » Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:29 pm

All threat reductions are multiplicative.

All threat increases are additive.


thats been tested with high confidence by Satrina and others.
And if you think about it, it makes sense that it would be that way, so you dont have negative threat after threat reductions or massively high threat after combined threat increases.
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Postby Joanadark » Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:31 pm

I could be wrong about damage modifiers though.
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Postby jere » Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:30 pm

Where is their research located at? I would be curious to read it.

EDIT: Found it.

Just followed the link from Satrina's posts in the forums:

http://evilempireguild.org/guides/kenco2.php

The guide is by a person named Kenco, but posted by Satrina and says:

When the Righteous Fury buff is active, Holy damage causes 1.6 threat, or 1.9 threat if you have 3/3 Improved Righteous Fury.
Holy Shield damage gives another 1.35 multiplier, for 1.9 * 1.2 = 2.56 threat per damage with talented Righteous Fury.
Righteous Fury has been modified in 2.0.1 to affect all paladin spells, including healing. This means a Paladin with talented Righteous Fury up heals for almost the same threat as a priest/druid without threat reduction talents (0.25*1.9=0.475, compared to 0.5 heal threat for other heal classes)


So it looks like by their own guides paladin threat is multiplicative, though they comment that warrior and bear threat are additive (bear was changed in a TBC patch from multiplicative to additive).

For us it appears to be multiplicative.
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