Uphill battle to tank Twins

Kalecgos, Brutallus, Felmyst, M'uru, Entropius, Kil'jaeden

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Uphill battle to tank Twins

Postby Dragonzbane » Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:20 am

So, I have an uphill battle coming soon and I'm looking for advice.

Due to what in my opinion was a poorly thought out decision compounded by a lack of communication between myself and my RL I was taken out of the Twins rotation and replaced by a warrior.

Short Background:
My guild decided to go with a druid/warrior team for Brutalus because most thought that would be an easier combo to deal with than having me tanking. I had a couple issues when I came in originally after we had killed him a few times. After working through those issues I’ve tanked Brut successfully ever since. It still seems like some people are holding that over my head though. Moving to Fel Myst, we went with Warrior/Me combo with me actually tanking solo on 2 occasions because our warrior wasn’t around.

Our first night of attempts on Twins the guild again decided to go with a warrior/druid combo.

I pulled the RL aside after a night of wipes and explained how I would be a better option and gave solid reasoning. The next few days I sent him links to here and videos of Paladins tanking Twins and he decided to give me a shot. It also helped that our druid stopped raiding for a while.
Image
Dragonzbane
 
Posts: 1673
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:58 am
Location: In the Forums, stirring the pot.

Postby Elsie » Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:28 am

Well, the best method would be to explain the necessary requirement of the fight and how you fulfill it (uncrushable, etc). Then, explain why tanks die or the complications they face followed by how paladins are the only tanks with an innate ability to deal with them.

For part 1, you just state uncrushability, health, debuffs, etc.

For part 2, obviously higher threat, a non-fire method of removing debuffs, An auto-out for confound if necessary, a 'second trinket' for conflag if necessary, etc.
User avatar
Elsie
 
Posts: 3819
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:12 pm

Part 2

Postby Dragonzbane » Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:03 am

My second night rolls around and the RL logs in right before the raid.
Just as I’m about to zone he tells me that they are sitting me because my threat was to inconsistent. Of course I’m a little shocked by this because I thought I ended on a high note. I explained to him that the first 2 or 3 attempts I wasn’t getting MDs and he asked me why I didn’t saying to him about that. I admitted my mistake but said that I talked with the hunters and thought they had everything straightened out so there was no need to bother him about it, he had enough to worry about.

He then mentioned that I conflagged the Lock tank twice which was an obvious mistake on my part but it was a “learning night” and people were wiping us to conflags left and right. He decided to stay with the warrior/warrior duo but said he’d talk to me after the raid.

Raid ends after more wiping (one being the MT conflaging the lock tank) and I explain to him what was going on with my rotation and how I can change things around, use different consumables and even switch some gear because I’m a little over “sunwell uncrushable” so I can afford to add more SD by switching my T6 boots in for my Myrmidon’s etc. I then pointed out that everything I showed him leads to the conclusion that a Paladin would be a better choice. He replied that I could say whatever I wanted and show him all the vids and strats I wanted but the bottomline was that I’d have to perform. I told him that was fine but I need a fair shot and that I didn’t feel like I was given a good opertunity to prove what I could do. That discussion ends with him saying he’d give me another shot but I’d have to do better, and I agreed saying that it wouldn’t be a problem. Afterall I knew I had done well at the end and with a few tweaks here and there to increase threat it would be my fight.

We start this week off in Sunwell and Thursday we kill Fel Myst and head to Twins.
After the gauntlet I am again told that they want me to sit. So now I’m getting pissed, I ask the RL what was up and remind him that he told me I’d get another shot. He replies that our MT over-ruled him about letting me back in and the officers decided they wanted to keep the same group of players as last weeks attempts. I tell the RL and my Paladin CL that I’m pissed, it’s bullshit, and I want to talk with some officers after the raid to see what is going on. I switch to an alt and log off vent. At this point in time I’m really not happy and felt like the best thing I could do was stay away from that situation. They end up wiping more, people are running OOM and agro is low but they hit P2 once.

After the raid gets out I have a talk with the GM, RL and my Paladin CL.
They lay out all of their concerns and I reply to a few of them unfortunately we didn’t have enough time for me address each of their issues so I ask for a second meeting and they all agree. We were now off until Sunday night when we resume raids.

I end up talking to our GM the Friday for over 2 hours and going over all of the issues she and the others had and going over all the issues I had, then I explained my case for tanking to her. That conversation went well and we each felt very positive about it and she agreed that I should get a shot at the fight again. I did not get to talk to my RL or CL because I didn’t have time that night and didn’t see them on Saturday.

I log in Sunday early for Raid but was still wasn’t able to talk to the other guys.
Eventually raid time rolls around and the RL logs in, I remind him that we still need to talk and he agrees but they will still be going with the other line-up for that night.

Well, eventually they end up downing the Twins last night.
Image
Dragonzbane
 
Posts: 1673
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:58 am
Location: In the Forums, stirring the pot.

Postby Dragonzbane » Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:13 am

So here I sit having been in every kill from HKM to Kalec and now I’ve sat for the 1st Brut and 1st Twins kills.

Sunwell, the crowning achievement for Paladin kind, except not for me.


So now I'm faced with a problem, we've down the boss without me, a fight I still believe I am the best option for.

I was pulled unfairly in my opinion but now I have to fight the old:
"Well we beat the fight without DB in, why should we put him in now?"
"Maybe we'll let him in once it's on farm."

So now once I finally get in there I'm going to be under an even bigger microscope than before.

I felt like when I was in for Brut if anything went wrong I was the one who was blamed, if nothing else then subconsciously.

I have to make sure I do everythign right and one shot this boss once I do get my shot.

Until then I'm going to have to batter my Leadership with the WWS showing how much these warriors are getting crushed and then try to appeal to the healers.

I'll post the WWS link to follow.
Image
Dragonzbane
 
Posts: 1673
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:58 am
Location: In the Forums, stirring the pot.

Postby Karador » Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:13 am

I am in the same boat as you there. We are about to start work on the twins and it sounds like i will not be in the tank rotation for them.

I hate how people have Molten Core Syndrome still when it comes to tanking.
Image
Karador
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:11 pm

Postby Dragonzbane » Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:30 pm

Elsie wrote:Well, the best method would be to explain the necessary requirement of the fight and how you fulfill it (uncrushable, etc). Then, explain why tanks die or the complications they face followed by how paladins are the only tanks with an innate ability to deal with them.

For part 1, you just state uncrushability, health, debuffs, etc.

For part 2, obviously higher threat, a non-fire method of removing debuffs, An auto-out for confound if necessary, a 'second trinket' for conflag if necessary, etc.


Sorry Elsie, I didn't get a chance to finish my posts before you jumped in.


Those are all points that I have/will continue to bring up.
I hope that the WWS that I can show them will help make them understand.


I thought I remembered a tool/website to throw the WWS into that could calculate threat, does anyone know what I'm talking about or am I just crazy?
Image
Dragonzbane
 
Posts: 1673
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:58 am
Location: In the Forums, stirring the pot.

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:31 pm

Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9671
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Postby Mithos » Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:48 pm

Well, they will probably use you on M'uru, make you sure you get yourself tanking a side with the melee (preferably the far side) rather than doing the Spawn job. Read up loads and prepare for it and get yourself back in the "solid team", if you like, without trying to be negative in anyway. It's unfair but this stuff can happen, to anyone of any class/role. If it happens again then :\, dunno :(.
Image
Mithos
 
Posts: 728
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:54 am

Postby Elsie » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:07 pm

Sounds like Molten Core Syndrome. All guilds, even mine who I MT'd for had it (was promptly put as second when we geared up the reroll guy >_>). People will always see 'no shield wall, no last stand, 4% less mitigation, no thunderclap' regardless of anything we say. Till wotlk (where they'll probably still say no last stand, less effective shield wall).

...why the heck were you getting MD's on tanks? You doing reverse? Paladins are absurdly good at reverse since the warrior can start till we rip threat from them. Let's you both get a good buffer and PLD mt threat on reverse is stupidly high.

...Of course, I've never played with you. Still, paladins have advantages no one cares about >_>.
User avatar
Elsie
 
Posts: 3819
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:12 pm

Postby Mithos » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:39 pm

Reverse: Lol I didn't see that MD bit - in my guild we have a surv hutner who has readiness and 2 BM hunters in the raid sometimes (i.e. all 3 of them). They have to use all 4 MD's to keep me from ripping from the warrior at the first confound (i.e., if they used 3 on him and 1 on me, that's only a difference of 2). And no - our warriors are not terribad :p.

You can get unlucky if you jump down, JotC (or JoW modulo ret pala), consecrate, Wings-->frizbee/exorcism and either/both of them crit/miss. That can cause inconsistant threat. I use wings purely as insurance incase one of them misses, but even then I yell on TS. Then the GM can hear it, and if someone rips it's their fault for not adapting.

But so what? If the warrior misses noone is QQing except the nub warlock who wasn't looking. This fight is about people not tarding out on conflag and raid healing - tank threat is something people have to look at as usual. Ofc you need practice to set your threat/mitigation mindset for the fight, so you do need those shots at them.
Image
Mithos
 
Posts: 728
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:54 am

Postby Thark » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:43 pm

It seems your guild has a good tank of every class, so they can go with the best tanks for the job. Be prepared to accept that sometimes this will not be you. As your raid leader says - you have to perform.

I don't know what problems your guild has, but if you know what they are, you can focus on how you can help. But keep in mind that if you replace one of the other tanks, then they might be in your current situation. You should all learn to work together. Use each other's strengths - don't just pick on each other's weaknesses.

To me, it just seems like you're upset that you were given a chance and they decided to replace you, and now you're not getting another chance. I know how hard it is to step in and learn a fight when it's on farm mode with other tanks. But you need to be prepared, and know what consumables you need, what buffs you need from others, positioning, and everything else about the fight.

I don't really see what you hope to accomplish with this thread here. It seems as if this conversation really needs to happen with your guild to accomplish something. I know it can be rough, but as a guild leader, raid leader, and Paladin tank, I can only give you advice on what I'd do. Be sure that people know you want another shot, and be prepared to perform when you get it. If you don't do that, then you really have nothing to complain about. Good luck!
Thark
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 8:25 am

Postby Worldie » Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:07 am

Heh, i missed our first Twins kill too.

But i was actually on holiday, our DPS complain when i don't tank twins or brut since they are threatcapped :\

Tbh go 40/21 and teach them what threat is, is a good way to "get into raids".
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13652
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Postby Joanadark » Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:35 am

He replied that I could say whatever I wanted and show him all the vids and strats I wanted but the bottomline was that I’d have to perform.


This is something which I think illustrates the REALITY of how guilds really make these kind of decisions.

Its not the class, or the mechanics, or what other guilds have done, its the PLAYERS which are what determines what tanks they will want to use.

Fact of the matter is that they simply aren't as comfortable with you as a player. Certain words they used like "inconsistant" jumped out at me when I read your account.
The mistake I see a lot of paladins making is trying to throw theorycraft down people's throats as "evidence" of why they are so amazing and MUST be brought in for excounter X. This is all well and good, but no amount of theorycraft or quoting what other people have done is going to affect whether or not your guild is confident enough in you as a player to trust you with progression.

Progression is inherently risky. Its on progression where the raid as a whole feels the least in control.
The last thing they need is to be wondering whether or not the tank is going perform. This, more than your class, is why they keep expressing reluctance.


Ditch the wws logs and video links and theorycraft.
The last thing you need is to look like youre trying to discredit the other tanks.

The only thing that will help you here is to STEP UP YOUR GAME.
Everything they have you tank in the meantime, blow it out of the water. Control it. And be utterly confident.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Postby Ankiseth » Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:53 am

^
Hit the nail on the head.

Not to say that you're not supported here. It could be your guild is horribly unprogressive. But I do think the above makes an incredibly valid point.

If a guild wants you. They make room for you.
Vids just prove it's been done. Not necessarily that it's the best or even the only way. I've tanked RoS p2. Not smart. But it's doable (boy was *that* an experience. "Guys, kick EVERYTHING". The hate tells from the warlocks... :< )

Anyway, back to you. Look, if he's not going to be reasonable about it, it's because of his perception of you. You can either bug him until the end of time to let you do it. At which point if he does, he'll already be.... disgruntled at you for pressuring. Or, as the above said, you can work on his perception of you.

If the DPS love you, having them tell the RL/GM you are amazing threat ceilings is a little underhanded. but yea :X
Ankiseth
 
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:07 am

Postby Dragonzbane » Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:57 am

Thanks for all of the replies so far.


I think the part that some of you are missing is that:

I was making adjustments during the fight and by the last several attempts I clearly had the rotation down and was owning the agro list from start to finish.


Going over my WWS I found the following:

We had 23 attempts that night.

1) I had no MDs for the first 6 attempts and then later none on the 11th attempt while the warrior had MDs on all of the attempts.

2) The hunter MDing the warrior was insanely fast with his MDs. Macro, maybe? He often had two shots off before my Hunter had 1 of his shots off.

3) I took 6 Crushing blows, the warrior took 28. The 2 warriors both took more and more Crushing blows on the following days (makes sense).

4) I block for 100 more damage per block and mitigation 4.5% more Damage overall.

Was I consistent from the first attempts to the last?
No, I was not and probably a decent amount was my fault because I wasn't explaining to my RL what I was doing with my rotation and cooldowns and didn't mention that I wasn't getting MDs at first to him, only to the hunters.


With all of the above in mind I think I was pulled too soon and not given enough of a chance to show exactly how good I was doing because I didn't have a chance to state my case and show proof before the next raid and I was not told that they were considering making a change until that night.
Last edited by Dragonzbane on Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
Dragonzbane
 
Posts: 1673
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:58 am
Location: In the Forums, stirring the pot.

Next

Return to Sunwell Plateau

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest