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Warriors and Paladins Block About the Same in Build 8905

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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:02 pm

and for the record, here's the blue post saying they want Shield Block to be like a mini Shield Wall.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... id=2000#15
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Re: Warriors block more than Paladins in Build 8905

Postby Dorvan » Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:03 pm

Vesstair wrote:My problem isn't with supplying numbers, it's with supplying biased, unsourced, unverified numbers in a way which is likely to alienate an unbiased third party, since it just sounds like someone going "QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ THEY'RE BETTER". I value credibility..


Then test it yourself on the same publically available simluator Modus used....your suggestions that he's cooking the books don't make any sense when the tool is available for you to try out for yourself. If you value credibility, then when someone posts numbers and a simulator you'll present counter evidence if you have it instead of "I think you're making this up!" If you think his numbers are wrong, point out where....until you can present contrary data, you've got nothing but empty rhetoric.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:03 pm

Mithos wrote:Warriors block skills are looking insanely good as of now, also deflection got changed to 2/4/6% instead of 1/2/3/4/5%. We should get that soon too.


On my warrior, it's still 1/2/3/4/5% on beta.
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Re: Warriors block more than Paladins in Build 8905

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:09 pm

Vesstair wrote:and someone who regularly says things to the effect of "warriors are better tanks, GTFO" is saying "look at this, this is OP", not trying to give the information to the people who could CHANGE it, then saying "hey, they aren't gonna nerf the thing that makes them OP, because they just buffed it!" Good information phrased badly from a bad source just makes the information less convincing.

Ok, first of all I don't really remember seeing Modus saying any of those things.

In any event, Blizzard has asked for us not to post mitigation data at this time, they "have plenty of knobs to turn" to get mitigation where they want it, once the mechanics are in place. These tests are completely transparent, so since you have some untrust of the source, then analyze the data, analyze the code, run your own tests or whatever you need to do, and post some data instead of making these accusations that currently illustrate the kind of attitude that is not fit for these forums.

As for the mini shield wall comment, blizzard did make that comment quite awhile ago in the beta process, and suggested that the original implementation of critical blocks wasn't sufficient. I'm sure you can find the posts by searching the warrior beta forums for blue posts. They are probably at least a month old.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:56 pm

They're definitely stacking, I'm just not sure how.

Based on my combat log:
Standard Block: 581
Critical Standard Block: 1162 (Double)
Shield Block Standard Block: 1028 (100% increased block value)
Shield Block Critical Block: 1873 (???)

Ugh, so evidently "additional 100% block value" doesn't equal "block for double," although, shouldn't it?

I get 203 block value from Strength. I have picked up Shield Mastery (30% increased block value), and that's about all the modifiers I know of. Just figured I'd give everyone else the numbers to crunch in case you all can figure out what's not stacking with what before I do.

http://www.bennlinger.com/upload/WoWScr ... 234817.jpg
http://www.bennlinger.com/upload/WoWScr ... 235003.jpg
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Postby quthar » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:12 pm

moduspwnens wrote:They're definitely stacking, I'm just not sure how.

Based on my combat log:
Standard Block: 581
Critical Standard Block: 1162 (Double)
Shield Block Standard Block: 1028 (100% increased block value)
Shield Block Critical Block: 1873 (???)

Ugh, so evidently "additional 100% block value" doesn't equal "block for double," although, shouldn't it?

I get 203 block value from Strength. I have picked up Shield Mastery (30% increased block value), and that's about all the modifiers I know of. Just figured I'd give everyone else the numbers to crunch in case you all can figure out what's not stacking with what before I do.

http://www.bennlinger.com/upload/WoWScr ... 234817.jpg
http://www.bennlinger.com/upload/WoWScr ... 235003.jpg


The shield block + critical block absorbed all the damage. Looks like you need to test on something that hits harder.

edit: or with less BV
Last edited by quthar on Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:13 pm

quthar wrote:The shield block + critical block absorbed all the damage. Looks like you need to test on something that hits harder.


Wow, I feel like a retard. I'm sitting here cranking all possible numbers, and didn't even realize I blocked the whole thing. Ugh. Lemme go find something bigger.

...and the server's shutting down. I'll clear this up when it's back up.

edit: or with less BV


/wrists. The numbers still shouldn't work out, though, because the "double block" and "100% increased block value" blocks aren't the same.
Last edited by moduspwnens on Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Mithos » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:30 pm

http://wotlkwiki.info/index.php/Main_Page

scroll down, it's under arms

it's on the list of changes, also a list on worldofraids but it has "yet to be listed" under each class.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:31 pm

Mithos wrote:http://wotlkwiki.info/index.php/Main_Page

scroll down, it's under arms

it's on the list of changes, also a list on worldofraids but it has "yet to be listed" under each class.


Well, that's one of those things we can expect to definitely change for us if it changes for them. Thanks for pointing that out.

My combat log wrote:Standard Block: 581
Critical Standard Block: 1162 (Double)
Shield Block Standard Block: 1028 (100% increased block value)


So, from this, we should be able to garner that "100% increased block value" is (1028 - 581 =) 447. The difference between 581 and 447 is 134. Why is 134 block part of a normal block, but not part of "100% increased block value"?

EDIT: It's Shield Mastery. 447 x 1.3 is 581. So, a "double block" includes that from Shield Mastery, while "100% increased block value" only applies to shield block value BEFORE modifiers. A critical Shield Block would likely mitigate 2056 damage in my case.

This means the simulations on the first page are only accurate (to my knowledge) when Shield Spec and Shield Mastery both aren't taken. They could probably be used as a rough guide, though. Anyway, I guess now that we have gear sets available, there's no need to be so vague with the simulator. May as well let you input block value and run actual numbers.

EDIT2: Finally found a mob that hits hard enough without any trash:
http://www.bennlinger.com/upload/WoWScr ... 010500.jpg

and as previously expected, I blocked for 2056.
http://www.bennlinger.com/upload/WoWScr ... 010557.jpg
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Postby Noradin » Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:16 am

moduspwnens wrote:
Mithos wrote:http://wotlkwiki.info/index.php/Main_Page

scroll down, it's under arms

it's on the list of changes, also a list on worldofraids but it has "yet to be listed" under each class.


Well, that's one of those things we can expect to definitely change for us if it changes for them. Thanks for pointing that out.

My combat log wrote:Standard Block: 581
Critical Standard Block: 1162 (Double)
Shield Block Standard Block: 1028 (100% increased block value)


So, from this, we should be able to garner that "100% increased block value" is (1028 - 581 =) 447. The difference between 581 and 447 is 134. Why is 134 block part of a normal block, but not part of "100% increased block value"?


There was a change in the way percentaged increases/decreases are implemented in a patch sometime before 2.0.
If there is something reduced all those percentages will be applied multiplicative (i.e., damage is reduced by 6%, by 3% and by 50% they'll combine it to 0.94*0.97*0.5 = 0.4559). That way you'll never reach 0.
If something is increased the percentages will be added up and multipied afterwards (i.e. strength increased by 15% and 10%: 1+0.15+0.1 = 1.25; BV increased by 100%, 10% and 30%: 1+1+0.1+0.3= 2.4).
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Postby Io.Draco » Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:24 am

and for the record, here's the blue post saying they want Shield Block to be like a mini Shield Wall.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... id=2000#15


Well thats interesting , but it won't do warriors much good , shure they can take less damage overall BUT their dmg income will be spiked ALOT , and thats the thing healers hate the most , healing a tank who takes a lot of spiky damage
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Postby Snake-Aes » Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:56 am

Io.Draco wrote:
and for the record, here's the blue post saying they want Shield Block to be like a mini Shield Wall.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... id=2000#15


Well thats interesting , but it won't do warriors much good , shure they can take less damage overall BUT their dmg income will be spiked ALOT , and thats the thing healers hate the most , healing a tank who takes a lot of spiky damage
Being able to take less damage half the fight and then just a lil more than us on the other half kinda kills it.
Fact is that without knowing how we'll be, and having warriors in the state of this build, they simply take less damage overall and have better spike control. Even if they don't change the mechanics in the last pass, the numerical balance passes are likely to cut that. Dunno if they want warriors blocking for over 4k when they luck out and get a critical block with sblock up
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Postby Sabindeus » Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:36 am

Arcand wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:Would people just wait for the godamn paladin changes before stating their opinions about what will be?!


I'll bet it drives you crazy that people watch hockey games, instead of just reading the score the next morning.


you just compared the development process of a MMORPG to a hockey game.
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Postby Noradin » Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:51 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Arcand wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:Would people just wait for the godamn paladin changes before stating their opinions about what will be?!


I'll bet it drives you crazy that people watch hockey games, instead of just reading the score the next morning.


you just compared the development process of a MMORPG to a hockey game.


Why not...? ;)
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Postby Sabindeus » Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:52 am

Noradin wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Arcand wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:Would people just wait for the godamn paladin changes before stating their opinions about what will be?!


I'll bet it drives you crazy that people watch hockey games, instead of just reading the score the next morning.


you just compared the development process of a MMORPG to a hockey game.


Why not...? ;)


!@#$%^&*
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