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Warriors and Paladins Block About the Same in Build 8905

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Postby Arcand » Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:01 pm

Io.Draco wrote:Would people just wait for the godamn paladin changes before stating their opinions about what will be?!


I'll bet it drives you crazy that people watch hockey games, instead of just reading the score the next morning.
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Postby PsiVen » Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:03 pm

moduspwnens wrote:Well, but keep in mind that a warrior will benefit more from the block rating. For a Paladin, it's only 1% block (which, with Holy Shield, is more likely to already be there anyway). With a Warrior, it's 1% block 30 out of every 40 seconds, and it has a 30% chance of being worth double.

Kinda makes it ironic that it's our gear that has block rating. We'll see next time we get our shot, though.


That makes it slightly worse for warriors. 75% * 130% = 97.5%

Due to the prevalence of block rating on gear I will predict right now that we will be "uncrushable" while fully raidbuffed by the end of Naxx10, with about 20% passive block.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:04 pm

Vesstair wrote:I STRONGLY disagree.

1. Bosses don't crush.... meaning uncrushability won't be mandatory for raids, meaning there's a good chance we won't be "uncrushable", at least in the first tier of raids.

2. For a warrior, block rating will only make ANY difference 30 of every 40 seconds; for us, it will be 1% block for 40 of every 40 seconds.


Block rating will only make a difference when Redoubt is NOT up. It also has zero chance of being a double block.

Vesstair wrote:3. The closer we get to filling the attack table, the more each block rating moves us toward taking no normal hits. My gut feeling is that block rating will be more valuable the closer you get to a full combat table, but I don't have numbers to back it up- I would want to see it modeled before making any conclusions.


Well, to be honest, I think the results from page one disprove this. Look at the one with 60% avoidance. The Paladin also has 10% block, and 30% from Holy Shield. He has filled the attack table, but the warrior still blocks more.

Vesstair wrote:As a side note- we get 115 more block value on our tier sets. That will also make a difference.


Maybe, but how much LESS dodge, parry, and miss do we have?

Vesstair wrote:Source? Not that I don't believe you, it sounds reasonable... just curious.


Well, I'm not going to dig it up for you, but it was definitely said. I'm sure somebody will find the quote. They wanted to make Shield Block like a "mini Shield Wall."

Vesstair wrote:If that's so, I see shield block getting nerfed pretty substantially somehow; maybe 2 minute cooldown talented to 1:20? That would still be useful several times per fight, but wouldn't be quite so... well, OP. Maybe duration reduced to 5-8 seconds? Maybe 30-50 rage cost, so it's not economical to use EVERY time it's up, just when you need an "oh shit" button?


Keep in mind that Shield Wall was changed to become what I would consider a "mini Shield Wall." Its cooldown was reduced to 5 minutes. I also wouldn't count on it being nerfed, as its duration was just doubled last build.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:07 pm

PsiVen wrote:That makes it slightly worse for warriors. 75% * 130% = 97.5%


Factor in Redoubt, then, and the warrior wins.

EDIT: Or the Glyph.
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Postby Vesstair » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:06 pm

moduspwnens wrote:Block rating will only make a difference when Redoubt is NOT up. It also has zero chance of being a double block.


1. That's assuming redoubt is going to stay as is. Personally, I doubt this; I really think it and shield spec will get looked at in the second pass through on pallys.

2. Exactly how often is redoubt up? It's a 10% chance on damaging attack, and we'll be avoiding ABOUT 50% of attacks against us. If I use your same 2.4 attack speed, that means on average it will proc every 20 swings or so, and so if no procs overlaped at all AND all charges were NEVER eaten up, it would be up 20.8% of the time. Those are 2 very big ifs.

moduspwnens wrote:Well, to be honest, I think the results from page one disprove this. Look at the one with 60% avoidance. The Paladin also has 10% block, and 30% from Holy Shield. He has filled the attack table, but the warrior still blocks more.

......

Maybe, but how much LESS dodge, parry, and miss do we have?


Maybe you're right, maybe you're not. My brain really isn't working well enough to figure it out ATM. If you can show that each point of SBR helps warriors more than us, then ok, but psiven's logic works with me. What I would be interested in is a simulation which plots total damage taken against a relevant boss with correct mechanics. I see a number of possible problems in the way you're looking at it which would end up with information which is basically irrelevant-

1. As mentioned, does critical block stack with shield block? If it doesn't, that would make quite a difference.

2. 2.4 seems like a low average attack speed to me for a boss. Most bosses in my experience have special attacks which increase the average attack speed.

3. Will a critical + shield block'd block be a full block of a boss? Would just a critical block be a full block? That would change the average damage intake, which is really all that matters.

4. Glyph of shield block. I really, really doubt that there will be nothing equivalent added for paladins in some way. Does it not stack with the meta gem?
moduspwnens wrote:Well, I'm not going to dig it up for you, but it was definitely said. I'm sure somebody will find the quote. They wanted to make Shield Block like a "mini Shield Wall."

I've noticed you have a habit of saying "I heard this somewhere, someone else can find the source". I really do not mean to offend, but I've gotta say that makes me think real hard about taking something you say at face value. If you're not willing to source your own information, how do you (or we) know it's accurate? I know my memory fails me regularly in small ways, and I don't want to trust the word of someone who always seems to be looking at the absolute worst side of anything without some kind of proof.

moduspwnens wrote:Keep in mind that Shield Wall was changed to become what I would consider a "mini Shield Wall." Its cooldown was reduced to 5 minutes. I also wouldn't count on it being nerfed, as its duration was just doubled last build.


1. I can't find anything about shield BLOCK's duration being doubled. The entire point of your post is that shield BLOCK + critical block makes warriors block more than paladins. How do you think there's no chance it will be nerfed?

2. Even if it was buffed... EVERYTHING about warriors was just buffed, a LOT. Probably to the point of being OP. It stands to reason that they'll get buffed, then if they get buffed to BEING OP, they'll then get nerfed back to somewhere in between, and then they'll evaluate again.
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Re: Warriors block more than Paladins in Build 8905

Postby Vesstair » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:16 pm

Fridmarr wrote:As for the sky is falling, no one said that, so stop trying to say people did. That got old about 5 minutes after the wotlk forum opened and it's never been accurate.


moduspwnens wrote:I've been warning about this ever since they made Shield Block have no charges, and now that block value scales on Strength, it is m

...

even if warriors block fewer times than Paladins, they may block for more damage overall through their modifiers.


That phrasing sounds very loaded to me, and it comes across as "I've been telling you this, we're sucking, warriors are better, they get all these bonuses we don't, they're gonna be better tanks! OH NO!" This is not to mention it's being posted by someone who has, to my knowledge, uniformly stated that paladins should NEVER main tank bosses because by game mechanics, warriors are arguably superior. If it wasn't a "sky is falling" post, well, I would expect this on the official forums to say "hey, it looks like this is happening, you might want to look at it". Posting that post here seems to me like posting a thread saying "OMG! My guild leader said that warriors are the only real tanks and I can't spec anything but holy!".
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Re: Warriors block more than Paladins in Build 8905

Postby Moses » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:27 pm

Vesstair wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:As for the sky is falling, no one said that, so stop trying to say people did. That got old about 5 minutes after the wotlk forum opened and it's never been accurate.


moduspwnens wrote:I've been warning about this ever since they made Shield Block have no charges, and now that block value scales on Strength, it is m

...

even if warriors block fewer times than Paladins, they may block for more damage overall through their modifiers.


That phrasing sounds very loaded to me, and it comes across as "I've been telling you this, we're sucking, warriors are better, they get all these bonuses we don't, they're gonna be better tanks! OH NO!" This is not to mention it's being posted by someone who has, to my knowledge, uniformly stated that paladins should NEVER main tank bosses because by game mechanics, warriors are arguably superior. If it wasn't a "sky is falling" post, well, I would expect this on the official forums to say "hey, it looks like this is happening, you might want to look at it". Posting that post here seems to me like posting a thread saying "OMG! My guild leader said that warriors are the only real tanks and I can't spec anything but holy!".


In your previous post you say you think warrior are OP and will probably get nerfed. What's wrong with someone supplying some numbers to support that statement? It's a rhetorical questions don't answer it.
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Postby Tahl » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:38 pm

Thanks for running the numbers on this. Everyone can look at them and draw their own conclusions, so the OP's personal feelings about the state of pally tanking aren't an issue.

If they are giving us more block rating and block value on our gear (source) but warriors get more avoidance, and can still block just as well or better, that's something that needs to be fixed.

Now is the best time to work through these things, even before our second pass that's supposed to fix everything and blue's promises that they'll "get to our mitigation gap soon" (source). We need to be aware of the issues still remaining so we can tell if they've been fixed or if we need to continue to lobby for more tweaking.
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Postby Wakeman » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:39 pm

It's funny. If we are designed to be the "block" tanks, Critical Block should be ours, not warriors'. ;)
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Re: Warriors block more than Paladins in Build 8905

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:40 pm

Vesstair wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:As for the sky is falling, no one said that, so stop trying to say people did. That got old about 5 minutes after the wotlk forum opened and it's never been accurate.


moduspwnens wrote:I've been warning about this ever since they made Shield Block have no charges, and now that block value scales on Strength, it is m

...

even if warriors block fewer times than Paladins, they may block for more damage overall through their modifiers.


That phrasing sounds very loaded to me, and it comes across as "I've been telling you this, we're sucking, warriors are better, they get all these bonuses we don't, they're gonna be better tanks! OH NO!" This is not to mention it's being posted by someone who has, to my knowledge, uniformly stated that paladins should NEVER main tank bosses because by game mechanics, warriors are arguably superior. If it wasn't a "sky is falling" post, well, I would expect this on the official forums to say "hey, it looks like this is happening, you might want to look at it". Posting that post here seems to me like posting a thread saying "OMG! My guild leader said that warriors are the only real tanks and I can't spec anything but holy!".


There's nothing loaded, and you are skipping the part where he says
Moduspwnens wrote:Warriors just got a pass this build, so we'll have to wait until Paladins get one to make any real judgements.


And that's in the summary of his OP. No one said the sky is falling, or frankly anything close to that. Modus ran some numbers with the new mechanics, is it perfect, maybe not, but the intent was to better compare the mitigation mechanics with what we know at the moment. I personally find that data useful. I believe the simulator he used is publicly accessible so you can probably setup your own tests if you think it is warranted.
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Postby Syrokor » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:42 pm

don´t forget who warriors have 5% more chance to block, warriors can start with 15% bonus avoidance (5 dodge, 5 parry and 5 block), where pallies gain only 10( 5 dodge and 5 parry), this means whitout holy shield up or redoubt warriors get more chance to block than pallies, and fow now much more block value if u look at all talents, i already asked about this in 1 blizz forum, ours SS talents is too poor compared with the warrior version or even with the actually shamy(who not are a tank and have a talent better than ours) who increase block chance and value, and ours only increase BV for 30%.
maybe a good chance to balance more is give to pallies the same talent from shamans, and maybe can be added to redoubt to increase too our BV by 100% this can be very helpfull in AoE situations, but for now pallies look few poor im block, where if i'm right pallies need to be the best but actuall only is a few good compared with war(who are suposed to be best in dodge if u look at almost of the war tank gears who given a hugh amount of dodge, more than block).
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Postby Worldie » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:44 pm

My inner prophet tells redoubt becoming 5% block in the next patch.



Ok, we know it will not happen, but i can dream can't I.
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Re: Warriors block more than Paladins in Build 8905

Postby Vesstair » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:50 pm

Moses wrote:In your previous post you say you think warrior are OP and will probably get nerfed. What's wrong with someone supplying some numbers to support that statement? It's a rhetorical questions don't answer it.


My problem isn't with supplying numbers, it's with supplying biased, unsourced, unverified numbers in a way which is likely to alienate an unbiased third party, since it just sounds like someone going "QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ THEY'RE BETTER". I value credibility...

moduspwnens wrote:Keep in mind that Shield Wall was changed to become what I would consider a "mini Shield Wall." Its cooldown was reduced to 5 minutes. I also wouldn't count on it being nerfed, as its duration was just doubled last build.


and someone who regularly says things to the effect of "warriors are better tanks, GTFO" is saying "look at this, this is OP", not trying to give the information to the people who could CHANGE it, then saying "hey, they aren't gonna nerf the thing that makes them OP, because they just buffed it!" Good information phrased badly from a bad source just makes the information less convincing.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:50 pm

Vesstair wrote:1. That's assuming redoubt is going to stay as is. Personally, I doubt this; I really think it and shield spec will get looked at in the second pass through on pallys.

Yes, it's in the title of the thread... with the build number. This refers to the build.

Vesstair wrote:2. Exactly how often is redoubt up? It's a 10% chance on damaging attack, and we'll be avoiding ABOUT 50% of attacks against us. If I use your same 2.4 attack speed, that means on average it will proc every 20 swings or so, and so if no procs overlaped at all AND all charges were NEVER eaten up, it would be up 20.8% of the time. Those are 2 very big ifs.

Versus one attacker with a 2.4 attack speed, Redoubt won't ever get eaten up. This doesn't matter. As for how often it's up, it's not worth calculating. 75% * 130% * 110% is already higher than 100% (which is what Paladins are getting assuming NO Redoubt).

Vesstair wrote:Maybe you're right, maybe you're not. My brain really isn't working well enough to figure it out ATM. If you can show that each point of SBR helps warriors more than us, then ok, but psiven's logic works with me. What I would be interested in is a simulation which plots total damage taken against a relevant boss with correct mechanics. I see a number of possible problems in the way you're looking at it which would end up with information which is basically irrelevant-

1. As mentioned, does critical block stack with shield block? If it doesn't, that would make quite a difference.

It does. I'm in Heroic Steamvaults right now, getting ready to upload the screenshot.

Vesstair wrote:2. 2.4 seems like a low average attack speed to me for a boss. Most bosses in my experience have special attacks which increase the average attack speed.

2.0 is accepted as the standard attack speed of bosses, 2.4 is that with a 20% slow, and in one of the trials I made him attack twice as fast and it yielded a very similar result, in favor of the warrior.

Vesstair wrote:3. Will a critical + shield block'd block be a full block of a boss? Would just a critical block be a full block? That would change the average damage intake, which is really all that matters.

For purposes of this, we assume that a boss will be hitting for more than four standard blocks.

Vesstair wrote:4. Glyph of shield block. I really, really doubt that there will be nothing equivalent added for paladins in some way. Does it not stack with the meta gem?

The simulations assume neither have the meta gem or shield spec. Both would affect them equally, so multiply by 1.3 for Shield Spec or 1.1 for the Meta. It won't have an affect on the relative differences, though.
Vesstair wrote:I've noticed you have a habit of saying "I heard this somewhere, someone else can find the source". I really do not mean to offend, but I've gotta say that makes me think real hard about taking something you say at face value. If you're not willing to source your own information, how do you (or we) know it's accurate? I know my memory fails me regularly in small ways, and I don't want to trust the word of someone who always seems to be looking at the absolute worst side of anything without some kind of proof.

I'm posting here in the WotLK forums with a high post count, where many of the posters (including most of the ones in this thread) have been following the events unfolding ever since WotLK hit beta. While, sure, I should keep a running collection of all of Blizzard's blue posts in case I need to cite, for all practical purposes, I know I read it, and the majority of posters here read it. I'm still hoping on somebody below me who has one of those blue post databases to bail me out, because I still don't know where to find one (aside from MMO-Champion, but I can't search it). I'm not saying a high post count means I can assert whatever I want, but in your case, you clearly haven't been following the beta changes. Maybe it'd be safer to check on anything you find questionable yourself?

Vesstair wrote:1. I can't find anything about shield BLOCK's duration being doubled. The entire point of your post is that shield BLOCK + critical block makes warriors block more than paladins. How do you think there's no chance it will be nerfed?

It was the build before the one that happened last night, I believe. But it did happen. I've been following this stuff. You're free to look it up yourself, if you'd like. I don't think there's "no chance" it will be nerfed, but having just buffed it a good bit, it seems unlikely, at least until they start with numbers. That said, again, this is regarding the current build.

Vesstair wrote:2. Even if it was buffed... EVERYTHING about warriors was just buffed, a LOT. Probably to the point of being OP. It stands to reason that they'll get buffed, then if they get buffed to BEING OP, they'll then get nerfed back to somewhere in between, and then they'll evaluate again.

Probably? It doesn't matter for purposes of this thread. I'm referring to the current build.

Vesstair wrote:That phrasing sounds very loaded to me, and it comes across as "I've been telling you this, we're sucking, warriors are better, they get all these bonuses we don't, they're gonna be better tanks! OH NO!"

This is silly. Shield Block's main weakness (and our strength over it) was that it had only two charges. When they changed it to have no charges, AND doubled block value, AND doubled the duration, it finally got to the point where we are now (this build), that warriors block more than paladins. Fridmarr's been following this forum just as closely as I have, and you can see his post right after mine.

Also, this isn't something I'm pulling out of thin air. In that simulator, you can turn on the time, rolls, and effective blocks, and you see everything the simulator does. It shows you all the random numbers it generated with a summary at the end. I provided links to repeat the simulation. If there is anything wrong mechanically with the simulator, it's not tough to find. The only thing you can't plainly see is how the random numbers were generated, and even with that, all the source code is available for download! If you see something wrong, let me know and I'll fix it.

Vesstair wrote:This is not to mention it's being posted by someone who has, to my knowledge, uniformly stated that paladins should NEVER main tank bosses because by game mechanics, warriors are arguably superior. If it wasn't a "sky is falling" post, well, I would expect this on the official forums to say "hey, it looks like this is happening, you might want to look at it". Posting that post here seems to me like posting a thread saying "OMG! My guild leader said that warriors are the only real tanks and I can't spec anything but holy!".

Ugh, I just spent a half hour of my time writing clear, respectful posts responding to all your questions just to read this, showing that you're not going to believe anything I post anyway. It's these kind of posts that offend me.
Last edited by moduspwnens on Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Mithos » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:52 pm

Warriors block skills are looking insanely good as of now, also deflection got changed to 2/4/6% instead of 1/2/3/4/5%. We should get that soon too.

I predict that we will get a lot of similar love on our next pass and a lot of stuff that is just shit which will be picked out and changed on the following pass, whilst warriors get a few tweaks toning block value down (or we will get it tuned up).
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