Warriors and Paladins Block About the Same in Build 8905

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Warriors and Paladins Block About the Same in Build 8905

Postby moduspwnens » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:00 pm

ATTENTION:
If you are just now entering this thread, or want to see the evidence supporting the thread title, go to the much more accurate simulations here:
http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... 151#223151


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These figures aren't accurate due to the fact that 100% increased block value is not the same as blocking for double. However, the discussion is still there, so I thought I'd leave it so those who are just now reading it can see what we were talking about.

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I've been warning about this ever since they made Shield Block have no charges, and now that block value scales on Strength, it is much easier to compare the blocks of Paladins versus those of Warriors. Anyway, I updated the PHP WoW Tanking Simulator with the new Glyph of Blocking, and a new variable called "Effective Blocks."

What is an "Effective Block?" For Paladins, it's any block. We don't have anything that modifies blocks on a per-block basis. For all intents and purposes, a Holy Shield block mitigates just as much as a Redoubt or passive block. For Warriors, though, it's different. Shield Block increases block value by 100%, and there's a 30% chance of a critical block, which is double. There's also the new Glyph of Blocking to deal with. The issue is, even if warriors block fewer times than Paladins, they may block for more damage overall through their modifiers. For purposes of this thread, both tanks are assumed to either have or not have Shield Spec / Mastery. You can check the simulator's assessment of effective blocks by turning on rolls. It will show a tilde (~) for each effective block.

So for Build 8905, I updated the simulator and it shows "effective blocks." You should be able to "Show Rolls" and/or "Show Time" and see exactly what the simulator is doing. Anyway, here are the results at different levels of avoidance. Since Shield Block increases block chance by 100% for only a short time, the Warrior should get more effective blocks at lower avoidance while the Paladin should get more (relative to the warrior) as avoidance increases.

Trial 1: Minimum Avoidance, One Target
For this one, I'm using the minimal likely avoidance. The only avoidance and block %s come from talents and crit immunity through defense. The tanks are unbuffed. I also assume a single target with a 2.0 attack speed, slowed to 2.4 by Thunder Clap / JotJ, that is three levels above the tank.

Links to Repeat:
Warrior - Paladin

Effective Blocks out of 100, averaged over 10,000 swings.
The Warrior gets 59.94.
The Paladin gets 43.59.

Trial 2: 50% Avoidance, One Target
For this, I upped their dodge and parry chances by 5% each, for a total of 50% pure avoidance.

Links to Repeat:
Warrior - Paladin

Effective Blocks out of 100, averaged over 10,000 swings.
The Warrior gets 51.44.
The Paladin gets 41.60.

Trial 3: 60% Avoidance, One Target
For this, I upped their dodge and parry chances by another 5% each, for a total of 60% pure avoidance.

Links to Repeat:
Warrior - Paladin

Effective Blocks out of 100, averaged over 10,000 swings.
The Warrior gets 44.68.
The Paladin gets 40.56.

Trial 4: 70% Avoidance, One Target
For this, I upped their dodge and parry chances by yet another 5% each, for a total of 70% pure avoidance.

Links to Repeat:
Warrior - Paladin

Effective Blocks out of 100, averaged over 10,000 swings.
The Warrior gets 38.44.
The Paladin gets 28.72.

I expected the Paladin to overtake the Warrior at this point, but I guess I was wrong. Holy Shield is now only accounting for 20% actual block, and the scaling of Shield Block and Critical Block must be keeping its rate strong.

Trial 5: 60% Avoidance, One Target, Dual Wielder
Same as Trial 3, except the attacker has an attack speed of 1.2, twice as fast as before.

Links to Repeat:
Warrior - Paladin

Effective Blocks out of 100, averaged over 10,000 swings.
The Warrior gets 44.76.
The Paladin gets 39.63.

These values are almost the same as those in Trial 3. This is because since Shield Block no longer has charges, and the attacks weren't fast enough to eat through Holy Shield, so the results are almost the same. The Paladin's went down a little, likely due to the few times Redoubt's charges were eaten through (only 5 every 10 seconds to Holy Shield's 8 every 10).

Conclusion (TL;DR)
In virtually every situation, while tanking a single target, a Warrior will block more than a Paladin. This should be contrary to developer goals, as it's in the description of the warrior's "niche" that they have high avoidance. If they have higher, better-scaling block, too, that's a significant imbalance. Warriors just got a pass this build, so we'll have to wait until Paladins get one to make any real judgements. For a more practical use of "effective blocks," you can multiply that number times normal block value to see how much damage is mitigated over 100 swings.
Last edited by moduspwnens on Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:07 pm

Thanks for running the numbers. I thought this might actually be the case when discussing some of the mechanics in the thread about block rating.

I think it's likely our mitigation mechanic will change a bit with our next pass. I mean if you think about it, is pretty much completely the same as TBC. Definitely something to keep an eye on though. Having lower mitgation from the defensive stance difference, less avoidance, lower mitigation via blocks, and less spell damage mitigation would be a rather unfortunate combination.
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Postby Io.Draco » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:08 pm

Would people just wait for the godamn paladin changes before stating their opinions about what will be?!
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Postby Sabindeus » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:08 pm

IMO we're not going to be the "block" tank anymore, and changes to our class are coming that are going to do something to buff us and set us apart like warriors just got.
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Postby Sabindeus » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:08 pm

Io.Draco wrote:Would people just wait for the godamn paladin changes before stating their opinions about what will be?!


i kno rite???
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Postby Snake-Aes » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:09 pm

It's just kind of strange. Our naxx set already has quite a bit less avoidance in favor of block. It makes sense we'd be the guys who have OP blocks. Oh well, let's wait for pally changes.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:14 pm

Io.Draco wrote:Would people just wait for the godamn paladin changes before stating their opinions about what will be?!


I wrote:in build 8905


I wrote:Warriors just got a pass this build, so we'll have to wait until Paladins get one to make any real judgements.


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Postby Salamandra » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:21 pm

I don't really see a way to make us block for as much, then. Well, not without having changes very similar warriors. Like Holy Shield increasing block value by 50% or something similar.

It would also be better if redoubt procced more often but for less % block. Right now by just being uncrittable and having holy shield up some of it's taken off the table.
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Postby Kitsuna » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:24 pm

Io.Draco wrote:Would people just wait for the godamn paladin changes before stating their opinions about what will be?!


If we didn't discuss the changes with the limited information we have, there would be no point to having a wotlk forum.
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Postby Zaia » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:26 pm

Kitsuna wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:Would people just wait for the godamn paladin changes before stating their opinions about what will be?!


If we didn't discuss the changes with the limited information we have, there would be no point to having a wotlk forum.


That's right! Stop posting!

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Postby Tisiphone » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:29 pm

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=2565


Buff:
Shield Block
Block chance and block value increased by 100% for next attack.
10 seconds remaining
Like they say, bind all buttons to FoL and just roll your head over the keyboard.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:32 pm

Kitsuna wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:Would people just wait for the godamn paladin changes before stating their opinions about what will be?!


If we didn't discuss the changes with the limited information we have, there would be no point to having a wotlk forum.


No kidding. I'm at a loss of how often folks will comment on stuff about wotlk, but as soon as someone comments about a mechanic that doesn't look good at the moment, they get hypocritcal and start spouting off about how it's useless to talk about because we aren't done yet.

We know that GC has stated that they aren't ready to do a numbers pass yet. So there's no sense plastering this all over the beta forums. That said we also can get a feel for the direction we've been headed so far.

At this point we likely have a good idea about warrior mechanics, and we've seen gear that gives us lower defense, lower avoidance, with more block rating and block value compared to the equivalent warrior gear. Given the other differences in our mitigation, the fact that despite those differences in gear we still block for less is something that is very worthwhile to know and discuss at this point.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:32 pm

Tisiphone wrote:http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=2565


Buff:
Shield Block
Block chance and block value increased by 100% for next attack.
10 seconds remaining


The ability and the tooltip aren't the same, but I can assure you that the ability description is what matches the function.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:33 pm

Tisiphone wrote:http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=2565


Buff:
Shield Block
Block chance and block value increased by 100% for next attack.
10 seconds remaining


Your bolded text does not exist on that tooltip.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:37 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Your bolded text does not exist on that tooltip.


On the WoWhead page, the hover-over tooltip says what's in his bolded text.
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