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I just pulled aggro...

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Postby John Ra » Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:29 am

Joanadark wrote:
Do you do your normal threat cyles as if you were MT'ing Joan? Sometimes I wonder how OT'ing Gruul would go (I usually bring my Rogue since we have a lot of tanks and not a lot of geared DPS) and if my mana could take it, even with the Hateful Strikes.



normal threat cycle excluding Holy Shield and Consecration downranked one-two ranks enabled me to pass the off-tank.
Since I was taking zero damage i needed to chug major mana pots (super weren't really necessary, so i saved money by using majors).

As official off-tank I used my normal threat cycle, excluding Holy Shield, and using max-rank Consecrate.
It was completely unneeded to use mana pots, though I didn't bother to use Ironshields either.

Most of my Block Value itemization I swapped out in favor of a heavy amount of dodge.

If the occasional light Shatter damage and Hateful Strikes didnt create enough damage inflow, or I got a string of Dodged Hatefuls, I simply stood in a cave-in.
I don't have access to CTprofile, so may I ask how much mana you have and what your typical offtank threat cycle is? This is really interesting to me.
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Postby adese » Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:51 am

Paladins are generally thought to be the worst OT because so much of our threat is generated by getting hit - namely, Holy Shield and Ret aura. Without those (esp HS), our threat generation can decrease significantly.

This isn't to say that we can't OT. Rather, it's that warriors and druids have an easier time of being OT than we do.
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Postby Joanadark » Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:54 am

It might also depends on how good your tanks are.


If I'm able to outpace the DPS going all-out, thats what matters, regardless of whether I can outpace the other tanks who are also outpacing the DPS going all-out.

You could make the arguement that my DPS sucked. I might even agree with you.


The relevant point was that I was able to acheivably reach number 2 on aggro not only in a secondary position where my reactive damage wasnt coming into play, but also when I WASNT the hateful strike tank and wasn't taking any damage at all.

I have something like 5.3k mana raid buffed.
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Postby Joanadark » Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:58 am

Paladins are generally thought to be the worst OT because so much of our threat is generated by getting hit - namely, Holy Shield and Ret aura. Without those (esp HS), our threat generation can decrease significantly.

This isn't to say that we can't OT. Rather, it's that warriors and druids have an easier time of being OT than we do.


thing is, warriors have a fairly tough time too it seems. We don't get Holy Shield, but they can't revenge and have a greatly reduced rage intake.

I think that perhaps we're all more balanced than we thought.
I still think druids make the ideal off-tanks though for many situations.
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Postby Vesper » Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:39 am

Joanadark wrote:thing is, warriors have a fairly tough time too it seems. We don't get Holy Shield, but they can't revenge and have a greatly reduced rage intake.

I think that perhaps we're all more balanced than we thought.
I still think druids make the ideal off-tanks though for many situations.


Well, my point here is that Gruul is a poor example of a rage-starved/low-damage OT situation. In the beginning of the fight, there may be issues, though that can be fixed by cave-ins/sitting. But the OT is taking plenty of damage later on, missed hurtfuls or not.

Druids are helped a lot by a) our 2 piece T4 set bonus, which many druids use until T6 and b) the fact that our tier armor serves as both tanking and dps gear. Since we hit the armor cap so early (many druids by T5, and before that if they're counting on inspiration/ancestral fort procs in 25-mans), we're left with 2 stats to worry about for tanking: sta (which has limited value after a certain point), and agility. Agility also happens to be our strongest dps stat (at least for kitty -- followed closely by str). Reaching the uncrittable cap with tier gear does become a bit of an issue, but it's not crippling.

Basically, a limited number of options (and poor itemization in the later zones) to improve our mitigation allows us to budget for gear best suited to an OT role (on 1-3 mobs). Take pity on bears! We need jobs too! :P

I've also seen our prot warrior and prot pally climb the threat charts fairly easily on Gruul even when not taking hurtfuls. I do think some of it depends on how much sustained threat your MT can generate, how much your dps classes are forced to hold back, etc.
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Postby Joanadark » Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:13 am

there was a time when people, ourselves included, used to say "paladins are incapable of building significant off-tank threat".

thats what I was disproving.

wasnt some kind of bash of smelly bears. i love smelly bears.
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Postby Vesper » Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:11 pm

Joanadark wrote:there was a time when people, ourselves included, used to say "paladins are incapable of building significant off-tank threat".

thats what I was disproving.

wasnt some kind of bash of smelly bears. i love smelly bears.


I thought this OT threat issue was more of a knee-jerk reaction to the nerf to mana return via overhealing.

There was an outcry by a sizable segment of the feral community about our tanking/threat viability too, when they nerfed bear dps back in March(?). Time (and certain hotfixes) has proven that isn't the case.
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Postby Lore » Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:40 pm

Bah, I saw that get mentioned, and started up a separate post because the discussion here wasn't really focusing on it. In the time it took me to write it (which included getting distracted for like 2 hours from work) the discussion moved to exactly what I posted about. =(

Anyway, the "well, that fight doesn't really count because you take damage every so often" argument doesn't really work because if there was no offtarget threat-based damage, there would be no need for an offtank to begin with. It's self-defeating.
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Postby Vesper » Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:32 pm

Lore wrote:Anyway, the "well, that fight doesn't really count because you take damage every so often" argument doesn't really work because if there was no offtarget threat-based damage, there would be no need for an offtank to begin with. It's self-defeating.


True, except in cases where secondary threat is needed in case the primary tank's threat is negated, or where the primary tank is put out of commission for a period of time. Granted, I haven't seen many fights in WoW where this actually occurs, and if it does, it's on oh, tauntable mobs.

My point mainly arose because "generating threat in limited rage situations" is generally where my class's tanking niche is assigned.
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Postby jere » Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:34 pm

Vesper wrote:
My point mainly arose because "generating threat in limited rage situations" is generally where my class's tanking niche is assigned.


Yes, but you didn't show up to my Gruul raid last night :!:

WTB Feral Druids not in college
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Postby Vesper » Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:07 pm

jere wrote:Yes, but you didn't show up to my Gruul raid last night :!:

WTB Feral Druids not in college


We ferals are great slackers!

Sorry about the huge presence on the boards today. I generally try not to overwhelm the place with druid stuff, but there was basically nothing to do at work all day.
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Postby Nymeros » Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:10 am

Vesper wrote:We ferals are great slackers!

Sorry about the huge presence on the boards today. I generally try not to overwhelm the place with druid stuff, but there was basically nothing to do at work all day.


I'm sure most of us actually appreciate the Druid information from their own viewpoint. The more knowledgeable we are about our fellow tanks, all the greater we can work together with that knowledge to double strengths and cover weaknesses.

I'd actually prefer it if Maintankadin had it's own section for Druids + Warriors, dealing with them on how to work with us (and for us: how to work with them). Sharing is vital in the Tank Corps.

(P.S. Former Pre-BC Bear tank here, if that counts for anything. /roar :D)
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Re: I just pulled aggro...

Postby infinitis » Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:28 am

Joanadark wrote:...off-tanking Gruul....

...and the maintank couldnt pull off me.

had to stand there for 30 seconds before he could outpace me.



im gonna go against all the people saying good job and state the obvious.

your bad.. if your not the mt for the fight, its your job not to jump the mt.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That being said I really don't see how you can touch the mt if your hunters are doing their job with the misdirects. And, 30 seconds, you most likely pulled it as he was using up his rage and then you left him unable to push anymore threat.
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Re: I just pulled aggro...

Postby Velaegis » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:00 am

infinitis wrote:im gonna go against all the people saying good job and state the obvious.

your bad.. if your not the mt for the fight, its your job not to jump the mt.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That being said I really don't see how you can touch the mt if your hunters are doing their job with the misdirects. And, 30 seconds, you most likely pulled it as he was using up his rage and then you left him unable to push anymore threat.


Yes, because Warriors using Rage = No threat. Clearly the OP sucks.

Seriously though, he isn't here bragging about how he's better than the MT, it's just proof the Pallies CAN Off tank.

Curious, when OTing do you guys wear your normal tank gear or more spell damage?
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Re: I just pulled aggro...

Postby enbee » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:12 am

Velaegis wrote:
infinitis wrote:im gonna go against all the people saying good job and state the obvious.

your bad.. if your not the mt for the fight, its your job not to jump the mt.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That being said I really don't see how you can touch the mt if your hunters are doing their job with the misdirects. And, 30 seconds, you most likely pulled it as he was using up his rage and then you left him unable to push anymore threat.


Yes, because Warriors using Rage = No threat. Clearly the OP sucks.

Seriously though, he isn't here bragging about how he's better than the MT, it's just proof the Pallies CAN Off tank.


I think he's just telling us his MT sucks (no offense.. if that's possible :>). A warrior with unlimited rage shouldn't have the slightest problem outpacing a paladin offtanking, unless you went in guns blazing AW and crit your AS on pull? :p
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