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Avoidance problem on Prince, need some advice

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Avoidance problem on Prince, need some advice

Postby tbolt » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:46 am

Hey just did Prince in a PUG tonight after not running kara for a while. My gear level is past Kara for the most part I think, which caused me to run out of mana (despite chain potting, judging wis, and autoattacking in P2 where the mythical parrygib could've helped) and lose aggro when he was at 17%. By the time I got him back half the raid, including one of the healers, was dead and we wiped. After that point some people left and we never got to finish. My stats were:
15k unbuffed health
16.9k armor without devo
504 Defense
24.32 Dodge
16.16 Parry
18.01 Block
379 Spell Damage unbuffed

I know going oom means that I should drop some avoidance ('cause i sure can't pot any quicker) so my question is how much avoidance should I drop in order to not go oom and still refrain from giving my healers a heart attack?
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Postby ulushnar » Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:03 am

I have more avoidance than that and I never go OOM at the Prince. You weren't doing something dumb like disengaging during phase 2 were ya?

Downrank Consecrate to rank 4, or leave it out altogether if you're low. Holy Shield, Seal/Judgement and Exorcism should be enough.
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Postby tbolt » Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:12 am

Haha no did not disengage and I used rank 4 consecrate for most of the fight except for the few top ranks at the beginning. I don't think I could leave consecrate out entirely though since the top dpsers weren't too far behind my threat for me to drop my biggest hate generator. I think I may drop some dodge for block rating next time 'cause I seemed to be low on mana and at full health most of the time.
I was also thinking about replacing the pocket watch for my DMC V trinket but i think it's too good of an oh-shit button to totally remove.
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Postby Marker » Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:57 am

Dont know what kind of consumables you're running with, but if you're constantly topped of and missing threat I'd reccommend going for spelldmg food, Greater Arcane Elixir and Elixir of Major Mageblood. Makes a good +53dmg and some nice regen, without compromising too much of your other stats.

On the other hand, if you're struggeling with mana-starvation, turning your back to the mob for a wee while will help you loose some health :) Just be sure to let the healers know up front.

On a general basis I'm wondering what gives the best benefit threat-wise of JoW and JoCr, if you're struggeling with mana. I know there's the added JoW benefit for the rest of the raid, but that doesn't help much if they need to hold back on their casting since they're threat capped.

And shame on DPS for pulling aggro. Shouldn't happen on a threat-predictable fight like this.
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Postby Pizbit » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:03 am

Marker wrote:Dont know what kind of consumables you're running with, but if you're constantly topped of and missing threat I'd reccommend going for spelldmg food, Greater Arcane Elixir and Elixir of Major Mageblood. Makes a good +53dmg and some nice regen, without compromising too much of your other stats.

On the other hand, if you're struggeling with mana-starvation, turning your back to the mob for a wee while will help you loose some health :) Just be sure to let the healers know up front.

On a general basis I'm wondering what gives the best benefit threat-wise of JoW and JoCr, if you're struggeling with mana. I know there's the added JoW benefit for the rest of the raid, but that doesn't help much if they need to hold back on their casting since they're threat capped.

And shame on DPS for pulling aggro. Shouldn't happen on a threat-predictable fight like this.


Turning your back on prince would be a very very very bad idea!
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Postby Sederia » Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:46 am

wouldn't the +20Sta +8?mp5(I forget, I need to go fish more) fish from Zangamarsh help better than the spell dmg food if he didn't want to do anything 'stupid' like turn his back or sit than say spell dmg in that case...
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Postby Pizbit » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:01 am

Sederia wrote:wouldn't the +20Sta +8?mp5(I forget, I need to go fish more) fish from Zangamarsh help better than the spell dmg food if he didn't want to do anything 'stupid' like turn his back or sit than say spell dmg in that case...


yeah it's 8mp5 *looks at healers bags*.
8mp5=576 mana over 6minutes, kinda meh. Really I judge wisdom and go to town when I can, never had threat issues o_O
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Postby Outback » Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:44 am

A healer was higher than you in threat? Are you sure righteous fury didn't run out somewhere during the fight? Our DPS is always hot and early, but everyone has omen up and running, so mages, locks & hunters can use their threat wipes just before 60% and then nukeonce P2 starts. I couldn't see any tank losing aggro to melee DPS in this fight!

And you can always warn the healers that a crit is coming up, picking a time when you're at 100% health then doing /sit. That should get some mana back in a hurry!
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Postby Spectrum » Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:52 am

DPS shouldn't pull aggro on that fight. Period. It's not your fault.

As for mana issues, maybe it's your avoidance, but you should be fine. I haven't had problems with exorcism, SoV, judgement, JotC, HS, and some consecrating. If you're running out of mana with Cons4, try Cons1. Cons1 is stupidly mana efficient when you have JotC up on the target.

But seriously, if you're DPS is so overgeared and they're pulling aggro, yell at them. They need to be aware of these things and though it feels like a stand-and-nuke fight you still have to pay attention.
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Postby tbolt » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:04 pm

thanks for the advice guys. I wasn't really too keen on turning my back on prince personally and I lost aggro to dps (a hunter which boggles my mind since they have feign death) the healer only died as a byproduct of being near the hunter.
I guess it was my own fault for not yelling at the hunter when he was riding my threat but i figured he'd be smart enough to FD...misplaced faith in a pug I guess.
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Postby Katerina » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:32 pm

I cleanse or leave SW:P on myself based on my mana and how much trouble the healers are having. (I cleanse it if I have full mana and/or they are having a hard time of it.) SW:P does a fair amount of damage and most healers are okay with letting you cleanse it or not. Just whisper them ahead of time to let them know what's up.

I still have to blow a super mana pot on Prince though. He ususally doesn't live long enough for me to take two.

As a note, his hit box is weird. If you are standing with your back to the parapet and his er... loincloth is in your face, he's still not always close enough to be in consecrate (discussed in another thread). So when I don't see consecrate ticking on him, I take a step forward, cons, then let him knock me back with shadow nova. As that is a huge amount of your threat (and this is a very threat sensitive fight since the dps must stay below your actual threat and not just pull aggro), it's well worth it to make sure he's frying in your holy fire.
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Postby Amirya » Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:35 pm

Katerina wrote:I cleanse or leave SW:P on myself based on my mana and how much trouble the healers are having. (I cleanse it if I have full mana and/or they are having a hard time of it.) SW:P does a fair amount of damage and most healers are okay with letting you cleanse it or not. Just whisper them ahead of time to let them know what's up.


Same, except I cleanse it if the healers tell me they're starting to go OOM and my health is starting to drop dangerously low. Otherwise, I let it tick so I get more heals, thus more mana.

Also, as someone said, you can use Exorcism on that cow-legged half-waddling clown. I usually Judge Righteousness on him a couple times, then Light to help out the healers, and Seal either Vengeance or Wisdom, depending. Consecrate, HS, and Exorcism whenever the cooldowns are up. And if all else fails, "HEY, WATCH YOUR THREAT!" works wonders. Especially if shrieked over Vent in a very loud, girly voice.

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Postby HannahBelle » Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:39 pm

If there is a shadow priest in the PuG and you are having mana issues, just ask the RL nicely to boot the warlock out of that group and put you in. Usually solves my mana problems. I run out of mana right as Prince dies usually, but I have to go all out on threat because of the gear the DPS is wearing. I have about the same distribution of avoidance stats as you do.

As a side note, DPS is given threat wiping abilities for a reason. Its because unless you outgear your dps considerably, there is no way you can out threat them if they are going all out. Besides, a hunter pulling aggro is retarded. Not only do they have FD, they also have misdirect, which I usually get at the beginning of the fight to build a quick threat cushion on top of AS, Holy Shield, Consencrate, Exorcism, SoR/JoR. Sadly, I don't have enough +hit to keep my Vengeance stack on reliably. Which is a shame, I really like the spell for boss fights.
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Postby Amirya » Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:24 pm

HannahBelle wrote:As a side note, DPS is given threat wiping abilities for a reason. Its because unless you outgear your dps considerably, there is no way you can out threat them if they are going all out. Besides, a hunter pulling aggro is retarded. Not only do they have FD, they also have misdirect


The problem is that, stupidly, warlocks and hunters' threat wiping can be resisted. And really, only hunters, rogues, and mages can wipe threat 100% (FD, Vanish, and Invisibility). Everyone else either gets a threat reduction, or nothing at all (I'm picturing enhancement shamans in the MT group dropping a Tranquil Air totem...or treelers dropping a Rejuvenation then going kitty and cowering).

It needs to be fixed.

"Oh no! I pulled aggro!"
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>Resisted<
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Postby majiben » Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:45 pm

Was the healer that died a holy pally? I've met a few holy pallies who use imp RF on fights for some reason. In fact the only time I've ever had threat trouble on prince was when a holy pally had imp RF on.
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