Blessing of Sanctuary

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Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:43 pm

Like I said, you can't get rid of the 3% DR or put it as a self-only. That part needs to be a raid-wide buff. At least, I highly doubt blizzard wants to strip it back out as a buff category. They could, I suppose. It's not like every raid will have a prot paladin or a disc priest, right?

And removing the regen for the other classes makes sense because otherwise it's one of those "rare" buffs that either those other classes are too weak without, or too strong with. Like WF and MS warriors. They should have their own means to maintain rage while overgeared, and not reliant on a prot paladin to double their amount of rage return from avoidance.
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Postby Rothes » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:06 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:Like I said, you can't get rid of the 3% DR or put it as a self-only. That part needs to be a raid-wide buff. At least, I highly doubt blizzard wants to strip it back out as a buff category. They could, I suppose. It's not like every raid will have a prot paladin or a disc priest, right?

And removing the regen for the other classes makes sense because otherwise it's one of those "rare" buffs that either those other classes are too weak without, or too strong with. Like WF and MS warriors. They should have their own means to maintain rage while overgeared, and not reliant on a prot paladin to double their amount of rage return from avoidance.


So, like I mentioned earlier. Kings base lined. Imp kings adds 3% reduction. BoSanc becomes Sanctuary a passive buff that regens mana on dodge/parry/block.

This seems to be the best solution. Helps our regen. Keeps talents roughly the same. Keeps the 3% reduction buff for raids.
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Postby Amarant_Pally » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:25 pm

I guess Blizzard is equating Warriors and DKs (talented) ways of improving RP/Rage generation to our (talent) ways of decreasing mana costs on abilities?
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:38 pm

Amarant_Pally wrote:I guess Blizzard is equating Warriors and DKs (talented) ways of improving RP/Rage generation to our (talent) ways of decreasing mana costs on abilities?


I doubt it. The warrior and bear talents for rage on avoidance (and en-rage on avoidance) are independent of making abilities more efficient. They already have puncture, focused rage, sword and board (heh), incite, cruelty, imp tclap, imp HS, etc... whew, and that's only warriors. Those are the corollaries to our mana reduction talents. Of course, most of our mana reduction talents apply to talented abilities in the first place, which is kinda nonsensical...

Shield spec, justified killing, imp D stance, natural reaction, and maybe a few other talents, along with the new BoSanc obviously, are direct counters to the problem of threat scaling inversely with avoidance and damage reduction. Especially problems arising from "overgearing" an encounter or instance. I'm not sure what DKs have for it, if anything yet, but it would probably need to somehow speed up the rune refresh with avoidance or something. I'm not sure how vital RP is relative to runes.
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Postby Splug » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:41 pm

Amarant_Pally wrote:I guess Blizzard is equating Warriors and DKs (talented) ways of improving RP/Rage generation to our (talent) ways of decreasing mana costs on abilities?
I'd hope not. The "rage on parry" tallent is fourth tier arms. Getting access to it requires some fairly specific builds, and competes against Cruelty. The deathknight RP-increase tallents also have no relationship with parry/dodge/block.

EDIT: Regarding deathknights in general: they are unique in that their power mechanics are totally independant of incoming damage. Runes refresh at the same pace whether or not you're being hit, and the only skill that does anything at all to influence RP build relative to tanking is sanctuary. So really, they don't need anything to compensate for overgearing.

On a side note: Technically, kings/sanctuary/"might"/wisdom are all available in a three-blessing paradigm; a warrior supplying raid-wide battle shout covers the BoMight slot for everyone. It still leaves prot paladins in an odd position, requiring 3 blessings (two from the same tallent tree) while other classes require 2 at most, but it's a solution achievable with 3 of the paladin class instead of demanding a fourth.

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Postby Kellann » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:51 pm

Get rid of BoW - turn other knobs to adjust peoples regen such that it's not necessary.

Baseline kings.


At that point, there are all of 3 buffs possible from pallies - one can be replaced by a warrior. Voila, no more need to have 3+ paladins in a raid.

While we're at it - it'd be nice to have talented ABILITIES rather than extra talented RAIDBUFFS in the tanking tree...
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Postby Spiggless » Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:36 pm

Kings definitely should be baseline... Just put Divine Protection there instead, shield wall is in that position in a warrior's tree! Though not entirely similar in what they do, they're still OH SHIT! buttons.
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Postby Sabindeus » Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:59 pm

Spiggless wrote:Kings definitely should be baseline... Just put Divine Protection there instead, shield wall is in that position in a warrior's tree! Though not entirely similar in what they do, they're still OH SHIT! buttons.


You mean Last Stand is at that point in the talent tree, and Shield Wall, which does the EXACT SAME THING as Divine Shield is a baseline warrior ability.
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Postby Mordinm » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:21 pm

Kellann wrote:While we're at it - it'd be nice to have talented ABILITIES rather than extra talented RAIDBUFFS in the tanking tree...


You mean like Holy Shield, Shield Toss, and the new HotR?
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Postby moduspwnens » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:37 pm

I'd much rather see it as a passive effect or long duration Hand spell.
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Postby Spiggless » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:38 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Spiggless wrote:Kings definitely should be baseline... Just put Divine Protection there instead, shield wall is in that position in a warrior's tree! Though not entirely similar in what they do, they're still OH SHIT! buttons.


You mean Last Stand is at that point in the talent tree, and Shield Wall, which does the EXACT SAME THING as Divine Shield is a baseline warrior ability.

YEAH, that... I fail at warrior! ^.^
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Postby Mithos » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:39 pm

Have been saying since they put BoK in prot that it should be baselined, I think its about time it was actually done tbh. Don't know what to put there though. Can't be sanc as that's a selling point for prot palas (yeah I know, skill and good player, but it still IS a selling point), can't really be ShoR or Divine Protection as they're baselined like they should be.

Maybe some self buff in it's own buff group, don't know what it would do though, but tbh if it some kind of buff it HAS to be a self buff otherwise everyone else would take it for a free damage reduction talent on the MT. Can't really be a direct damage talent else ret would be pretty much forced to take it (easy for them to get kings atm). Possibly something that just has "some effect" like piercing howl, with said effect being most useful to tanks.
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Postby Karock » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:18 pm

=P paladin have been saying since kings was the 31 point talent in ret that it should be a normal paladin skill
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Postby Selinaria » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:39 pm

Karock wrote:=P paladin have been saying since kings was the 31 point talent in ret that it should be a normal paladin skill


QFT....sad but true.

But yea this whole double blessing in one tree is kinda a pain when it takes up the 11 and 21 point slots that could be more active abilities.

Overall the new BoSanc is quite nice but gets overshadowed by kings too easily in terms of usefullness. BoSanc just becomes the "overgeared" blessing of choice.
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Postby Saphier » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:36 pm

Saphier wrote:
Tradyk wrote:
Saphier wrote:How much max runic power do Death knights have, and how much is paladin base mana at 80? With how much int?

2% mana vs 10% of a rage bar... Sure its great in aoe situations... we really needed help there, right?


You honestly trying to say it isn't enough? Take whats given man, this is the biggest step forward we've had to our endurance since spiritual attunement!


Please sir may I have some more?


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