Blessing of Sanctuary

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby Rofladin » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:07 pm

IMO, Blessing of Sanctuary could be made into an innate ability, instead of a self-buff. The thing that irks me is that we're dependent on dispellable buffs for things other tanks get innately. Red bar classes already gain rage based on being attacked, but we rely on incoming heals and now yet another talented Blessing for mana regen.

Our threat boost and primary damage reduction (Imp. RF) is already dispellable. BoSanctuary is dispellable. I don't understand why basic features of our prot tree should be wiped out by a single spell. On top of that, there's the obvious problem of choosing between Kings and Sanctuary, and of having to stack four paladins in a raid group. Mana regeneration for prot paladins should be a direct result of tanking mobs. BoSanctuary solves this problem, but it seems like it could be handled in a better way.

Don't get me wrong, BoSanctuary is a phenomenal ability now. Blizzard listened to the tankadins and gave us something extremely useful and powerful. I love it. It looks like the definite choice for 5-mans, heroics, and 10-mans. I like that we can cast it on the other tanks, too. But at least one of the following has to happen:

- Make Kings baseline
- Make Sanctuary a non-blessing buff (long duration, so no Hand spells please)
- Make Sanctuary self only
- Roll Sanctuary into another prot talent (Imp. RF, Spell Warding, whatever)
- Make Sanctuary an innate, talented ability (sort of a cross between Imp. RF and SA)
User avatar
Rofladin
 
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:03 am

Postby Galoheart » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:27 pm

Rofladin wrote:
- Make Sanctuary a non-blessing buff (long duration, so no Hand spells please)
- Make Sanctuary self only
- Roll Sanctuary into another prot talent (Imp. RF, Spell Warding, whatever)
- Make Sanctuary an innate, talented ability (sort of a cross between Imp. RF and SA)




I'll take or prefer anyone of the above. If it saves 1 talent point i would love it even more.
Image
http://ardentdefender.blogspot.com/ - My WoW Blog.
"One day my time will come. Until then I continue to prepare myself".
Galoheart
 
Posts: 242
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:11 pm
Location: My Blog!

Postby Corman » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:03 am

Talent wise its awesome, however, the two components need to be split up. Sanctuary should grant the same things but let Sanc stay a blessing that gives the rage/mana/rune regen AND grant your RF the 3 percent extra damage reduction.

Why?

If Warriors can have an extra 3 damage reduction, boss mobs must be balanced to compensate for that, meaning the non warrior tanks will have to deal with the damage discrepancy. With the 3 damage reduction on the blessing, paladins drop behind warriors (and I presume druids) in mitigation for the same reasons (albeit no shield wall probs really this time) as they did in tBC. With it split up the other way, though, Paladins are only 1 percent behind warriors (harder to compare with druids) but everyone can benefit on overgeared content or when enough paladins are present from the blessing (which is STILL, in some situations, a very good blessing).
Corman
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:47 am

Postby Mavrix » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:32 am

Corman wrote:Talent wise its awesome, however, the two components need to be split up. Sanctuary should grant the same things but let Sanc stay a blessing that gives the rage/mana/rune regen AND grant your RF the 3 percent extra damage reduction.

Why?

If Warriors can have an extra 3 damage reduction, boss mobs must be balanced to compensate for that, meaning the non warrior tanks will have to deal with the damage discrepancy. With the 3 damage reduction on the blessing, paladins drop behind warriors (and I presume druids) in mitigation for the same reasons (albeit no shield wall probs really this time) as they did in tBC. With it split up the other way, though, Paladins are only 1 percent behind warriors (harder to compare with druids) but everyone can benefit on overgeared content or when enough paladins are present from the blessing (which is STILL, in some situations, a very good blessing).


I agree wholeheartedly. I, for one, am tired of being a tank class that's "not as good as a warrior". That needs to go away, not be made worse by WOTLK.
If necessity is the mother of invention, laziness must be the father.

Mavrix

Dalaran

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... n&n=Mavrix
User avatar
Mavrix
 
Posts: 875
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 6:18 pm

Postby honorshammer » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:33 am

Corman wrote:Talent wise its awesome, however, the two components need to be split up. Sanctuary should grant the same things but let Sanc stay a blessing that gives the rage/mana/rune regen AND grant your RF the 3 percent extra damage reduction.

Why?

If Warriors can have an extra 3 damage reduction, boss mobs must be balanced to compensate for that, meaning the non warrior tanks will have to deal with the damage discrepancy. With the 3 damage reduction on the blessing, paladins drop behind warriors (and I presume druids) in mitigation for the same reasons (albeit no shield wall probs really this time) as they did in tBC. With it split up the other way, though, Paladins are only 1 percent behind warriors (harder to compare with druids) but everyone can benefit on overgeared content or when enough paladins are present from the blessing (which is STILL, in some situations, a very good blessing).


Please cross post this to the WotLK forums.
User avatar
honorshammer
Moderator
 
Posts: 2156
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Charleston, SC

Postby Andox » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:40 am

My 2 cents...

Improved Righteous Fury
While Righteous Fury is active, all damage taken is reduced by 9%.

Sanctuary
Each time the Paladin is hit by a damaging attack (even it it´s dodged, parried or blocked) the raid gains Sanctuary, when the target blocks, parries, or dodges a melee attack the target will gain 1 rage, 2 runic power, or 2% of maximum mana.
Last edited by Andox on Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Andox
 
Posts: 1369
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:54 am

Postby 2ndNin » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:45 am

Or we fix Righteous fury to read:

Reduces damage taken by 10%.

Then sanctuary is the unique tank buff we bring, and is invaluable. If anything the sanctuary aspect reflects the 3% more than the mana regen, and fits in with the damage reduction its always given. If you want to make it different roll in changes elsewhere, to stick with the sanctuary theme it must reduce damage or aggro on its blessed target, as its a tanking buff its likely damage, so we can't stop the warrior = more damage reduction theme.

What we could do is make RF better, or place the 6-10% reduction higher up, and make improved righteous fury something else, fury really doesn't sum up damage prevention to me, but rather something like:

Improved Righteous Fury:
While active Holy Damage you deal generates 10% extra threat (a bit like the old righteous fury really), or even While active you deal 10% extra holy damage.
[url=http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Lightbringer&n=elyria]Armoury Link
[/url]
Image
2ndNin
 
Posts: 617
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:53 am
Location: EU-Silvermoon

Postby Arcand » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:47 am

Corman wrote:With the 3 damage reduction on the blessing, paladins drop behind warriors (and I presume druids) in mitigation for the same reasons as they did in tBC.


I'm not sure exactly what you meant by falling behind - we get the 3% reduction if anyone does.

If a warrior with D-stance and Sanctuary gets hit for 100 damage, he'll take 100x0.90x0.97 = 87.3 damage.

If a tankadin with Righteous Fury and Sanctuary gets hit for 100 damage, he'll take 100x0.94x0.97 = 91.18 damage.

The difference is 3.88 damage or 3.88%, so Sanctuary actually cuts the warriors' 4% mitigation edge by a probably-too-small-to-notice amount. But it doesn't hurt our relative strength.

I do agree, though, that an awful lot of tankadin buffs end up being warrior buffs as well, and the inverse seems less common.
Arcand
Moderator
 
Posts: 4525
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:15 am

Postby ulushnar » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:01 am

Andox wrote:Sanctuary
6% of base mana
Eachtime the Paladin is hit by a damaging attack (even it it´s dodged, parried or blocked) the raid gains Sanctuary, when the target blocks, parries, or dodges a melee attack the target will gain 1 rage, 2 runic power, or 2% of maximum mana.


I don't like it. Having it as a raid-wide buff in general isn't a good idea since even in a 25-man, there should only be three people getting hit at the same time.

It gives me nightmares of rage-starved Fury Warriors "accidentally" taunting or wandering in front of a boss for a quick recharge. Also, the rage/runic power gains are completely out of whack with the mana ones.

Of all the fixes I've seen, the best seems to be making Kings baseline. Two powerful buffs in the same tree is lunacy.
Be careful when you argue with trolls, lest you become one.
User avatar
ulushnar
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 5442
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 6:56 am
Location: Bollocks, Scotland

Postby Andox » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:04 am

Ulushnar wrote:
Andox wrote:Sanctuary
6% of base mana
Eachtime the Paladin is hit by a damaging attack (even it it´s dodged, parried or blocked) the raid gains Sanctuary, when the target blocks, parries, or dodges a melee attack the target will gain 1 rage, 2 runic power, or 2% of maximum mana.


I don't like it. Having it as a raid-wide buff in general isn't a good idea since even in a 25-man, there should only be three people getting hit at the same time.

It gives me nightmares of rage-starved Fury Warriors "accidentally" taunting or wandering in front of a boss for a quick recharge. Also, the rage/runic power gains are completely out of whack with the mana ones.

Of all the fixes I've seen, the best seems to be making Kings baseline. Two powerful buffs in the same tree is lunacy.


Well, the Fury Warr issue isn´t a wide issue, the guild should punish them in someway. Now I do realize that my idea wasn´t the best. But since Blizz made alot of buffs raidwide I thought that maybe this would be a good idea.
User avatar
Andox
 
Posts: 1369
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:54 am

Postby Rothes » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:05 am

They should add the mana regen into righteous fury.
Kings should be baseline.
Sanctuary should be 3% reduction and dmg proc on dodge/block/parry.

This way you have the mana regen without Sanctuary on. I assume that was mostly for us anyways because warriors have a similar thing already.
Rothes - Protection Paladin - Bloodscalp
"When you are content to be simply yourself and don't compare or compete, everybody will respect you."
--Lao Tzu
User avatar
Rothes
 
Posts: 202
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:27 am

Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:15 am

Splug wrote:
Rasmfrackn wrote:
Splug wrote:Empower Runeblade is a 5 minute cooldown that grants 25 RP.

-Splug


Thanks. Hrm... I don't think wowhead knows how to present DK abilities yet. The effects on it certainly aren't intelligible from a RP standpoint.
It's worth noting that it also activates all runes. The 25 RP seems like more of a afterthought/throw-in. Maybe the Butchery tallent (1 RP per 5 seconds, 10 RP upon landing an honorable kill) is easier to decipher?

-Splug


http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=49483

Perfect, thanks. Yeah, they're 10x values behind the scenes there too. (200 instant, 20 per 5)

One of my main concerns is actually for warriors and bears. They have their own rage return talents for avoidance now (and/or more damage caused), but they can also have ours on top of that. It's not necessarily good to have to balance their rage gains against having a prot paladin around, and if they don't then when there is it may be "too easy"... or it may not be, I don't know.

That, and I really want kings AND sanc, and who's gonna give me the other one!

I can see a reason they can't bake it in though... Grace. The 3% less damage taken buff is one of the new buff categories, and currently it's prot paladins and disc priests. Prot warriors and bears can get it even without us there... they just have to bring a disc priest. I'm sure either option is suboptimal if they're the one tanking. :) But yeah, I don't think they'd let us keep our own 3% AND benefit from Grace, either. So... I'm at a loss.
Rasmfrackn
Dwarf Paladin
Icecrown Server
Eng/Scribe/Masochist
User avatar
Rasmfrackn
 
Posts: 1014
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:11 pm

Postby Rothes » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:35 am

Rasmfrackn wrote:
Splug wrote:
Rasmfrackn wrote:
Splug wrote:Empower Runeblade is a 5 minute cooldown that grants 25 RP.

-Splug


Thanks. Hrm... I don't think wowhead knows how to present DK abilities yet. The effects on it certainly aren't intelligible from a RP standpoint.
It's worth noting that it also activates all runes. The 25 RP seems like more of a afterthought/throw-in. Maybe the Butchery tallent (1 RP per 5 seconds, 10 RP upon landing an honorable kill) is easier to decipher?

-Splug


http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=49483

Perfect, thanks. Yeah, they're 10x values behind the scenes there too. (200 instant, 20 per 5)

One of my main concerns is actually for warriors and bears. They have their own rage return talents for avoidance now (and/or more damage caused), but they can also have ours on top of that. It's not necessarily good to have to balance their rage gains against having a prot paladin around, and if they don't then when there is it may be "too easy"... or it may not be, I don't know.

That, and I really want kings AND sanc, and who's gonna give me the other one!

I can see a reason they can't bake it in though... Grace. The 3% less damage taken buff is one of the new buff categories, and currently it's prot paladins and disc priests. Prot warriors and bears can get it even without us there... they just have to bring a disc priest. I'm sure either option is suboptimal if they're the one tanking. :) But yeah, I don't think they'd let us keep our own 3% AND benefit from Grace, either. So... I'm at a loss.


What if they bake the 3% reduction into kings and move kings deeper in the tree?

Then make Sanc something like "While you have a shield equipped you regen 2% mana on dodge/block/parry".

Gives us self only mana regen and just 1 prot blessing. Though it could be argued that that blessing is now too powerful.
Rothes - Protection Paladin - Bloodscalp
"When you are content to be simply yourself and don't compare or compete, everybody will respect you."
--Lao Tzu
User avatar
Rothes
 
Posts: 202
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:27 am

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:42 am

Rothes wrote:
Rasmfrackn wrote:
Splug wrote:
Rasmfrackn wrote:
Splug wrote:Empower Runeblade is a 5 minute cooldown that grants 25 RP.

-Splug


Thanks. Hrm... I don't think wowhead knows how to present DK abilities yet. The effects on it certainly aren't intelligible from a RP standpoint.
It's worth noting that it also activates all runes. The 25 RP seems like more of a afterthought/throw-in. Maybe the Butchery tallent (1 RP per 5 seconds, 10 RP upon landing an honorable kill) is easier to decipher?

-Splug


http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=49483

Perfect, thanks. Yeah, they're 10x values behind the scenes there too. (200 instant, 20 per 5)

One of my main concerns is actually for warriors and bears. They have their own rage return talents for avoidance now (and/or more damage caused), but they can also have ours on top of that. It's not necessarily good to have to balance their rage gains against having a prot paladin around, and if they don't then when there is it may be "too easy"... or it may not be, I don't know.

That, and I really want kings AND sanc, and who's gonna give me the other one!

I can see a reason they can't bake it in though... Grace. The 3% less damage taken buff is one of the new buff categories, and currently it's prot paladins and disc priests. Prot warriors and bears can get it even without us there... they just have to bring a disc priest. I'm sure either option is suboptimal if they're the one tanking. :) But yeah, I don't think they'd let us keep our own 3% AND benefit from Grace, either. So... I'm at a loss.


What if they bake the 3% reduction into kings and move kings deeper in the tree?

Then make Sanc something like "While you have a shield equipped you regen 2% mana on dodge/block/parry".

Gives us self only mana regen and just 1 prot blessing. Though it could be argued that that blessing is now too powerful.


@baked

Anyhow, yeah I think combining it with kings would be ok since it keeps the blessing count down. They could leave regular kings alone and just make sanctuary an improved kings. Either way, I'd rather not have 4 blessings.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9669
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:42 am

I could see "baking in" the mana return and removing the rage/RP portion of it. The 3% damage reduction is the part that needs to remain buffable for others.

The only thing is I think the mana return would have to be deeper in the tree than kings or impRF is now. impRF makes the most sense to me, but then they'd have to move it to 21+ and that'd screw the rets and holydins.
Rasmfrackn
Dwarf Paladin
Icecrown Server
Eng/Scribe/Masochist
User avatar
Rasmfrackn
 
Posts: 1014
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:11 pm

PreviousNext

Return to WotLK

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest