Blessing of Sanctuary

[Rofladin]

IMO, Blessing of Sanctuary could be made into an innate ability, instead of a self-buff. The thing that irks me is that we're dependent on dispellable buffs for things other tanks get innately. Red bar classes already gain rage based on being attacked, but we rely on incoming heals and now yet another talented Blessing for mana regen.

Our threat boost and primary damage reduction (Imp. RF) is already dispellable. BoSanctuary is dispellable. I don't understand why basic features of our prot tree should be wiped out by a single spell. On top of that, there's the obvious problem of choosing between Kings and Sanctuary, and of having to stack four paladins in a raid group. Mana regeneration for prot paladins should be a direct result of tanking mobs. BoSanctuary solves this problem, but it seems like it could be handled in a better way.

Don't get me wrong, BoSanctuary is a phenomenal ability now. Blizzard listened to the tankadins and gave us something extremely useful and powerful. I love it. It looks like the definite choice for 5-mans, heroics, and 10-mans. I like that we can cast it on the other tanks, too. But at least one of the following has to happen:

- Make Kings baseline
- Make Sanctuary a non-blessing buff (long duration, so no Hand spells please)
- Make Sanctuary self only
- Roll Sanctuary into another prot talent (Imp. RF, Spell Warding, whatever)
- Make Sanctuary an innate, talented ability (sort of a cross between Imp. RF and SA)

[Galoheart]

- Make Sanctuary a non-blessing buff (long duration, so no Hand spells please)
- Make Sanctuary self only
- Roll Sanctuary into another prot talent (Imp. RF, Spell Warding, whatever)
- Make Sanctuary an innate, talented ability (sort of a cross between Imp. RF and SA)

I'll take or prefer anyone of the above. If it saves 1 talent point i would love it even more.

[Corman]

Talent wise its awesome, however, the two components need to be split up. Sanctuary should grant the same things but let Sanc stay a blessing that gives the rage/mana/rune regen AND grant your RF the 3 percent extra damage reduction.

Why?

If Warriors can have an extra 3 damage reduction, boss mobs must be balanced to compensate for that, meaning the non warrior tanks will have to deal with the damage discrepancy. With the 3 damage reduction on the blessing, paladins drop behind warriors (and I presume druids) in mitigation for the same reasons (albeit no shield wall probs really this time) as they did in tBC. With it split up the other way, though, Paladins are only 1 percent behind warriors (harder to compare with druids) but everyone can benefit on overgeared content or when enough paladins are present from the blessing (which is STILL, in some situations, a very good blessing).

[Mavrix]

Talent wise its awesome, however, the two components need to be split up. Sanctuary should grant the same things but let Sanc stay a blessing that gives the rage/mana/rune regen AND grant your RF the 3 percent extra damage reduction.

Why?

If Warriors can have an extra 3 damage reduction, boss mobs must be balanced to compensate for that, meaning the non warrior tanks will have to deal with the damage discrepancy. With the 3 damage reduction on the blessing, paladins drop behind warriors (and I presume druids) in mitigation for the same reasons (albeit no shield wall probs really this time) as they did in tBC. With it split up the other way, though, Paladins are only 1 percent behind warriors (harder to compare with druids) but everyone can benefit on overgeared content or when enough paladins are present from the blessing (which is STILL, in some situations, a very good blessing).

I agree wholeheartedly. I, for one, am tired of being a tank class that's "not as good as a warrior". That needs to go away, not be made worse by WOTLK.

[honorshammer]

Talent wise its awesome, however, the two components need to be split up. Sanctuary should grant the same things but let Sanc stay a blessing that gives the rage/mana/rune regen AND grant your RF the 3 percent extra damage reduction.

Why?

If Warriors can have an extra 3 damage reduction, boss mobs must be balanced to compensate for that, meaning the non warrior tanks will have to deal with the damage discrepancy. With the 3 damage reduction on the blessing, paladins drop behind warriors (and I presume druids) in mitigation for the same reasons (albeit no shield wall probs really this time) as they did in tBC. With it split up the other way, though, Paladins are only 1 percent behind warriors (harder to compare with druids) but everyone can benefit on overgeared content or when enough paladins are present from the blessing (which is STILL, in some situations, a very good blessing).

Please cross post this to the WotLK forums.

[Andox]

My 2 cents...

Improved Righteous Fury
While Righteous Fury is active, all damage taken is reduced by 9%.

Sanctuary
Each time the Paladin is hit by a damaging attack (even it it´s dodged, parried or blocked) the raid gains Sanctuary, when the target blocks, parries, or dodges a melee attack the target will gain 1 rage, 2 runic power, or 2% of maximum mana.

[2ndNin]

Or we fix Righteous fury to read:

Reduces damage taken by 10%.

Then sanctuary is the unique tank buff we bring, and is invaluable. If anything the sanctuary aspect reflects the 3% more than the mana regen, and fits in with the damage reduction its always given. If you want to make it different roll in changes elsewhere, to stick with the sanctuary theme it must reduce damage or aggro on its blessed target, as its a tanking buff its likely damage, so we can't stop the warrior = more damage reduction theme.

What we could do is make RF better, or place the 6-10% reduction higher up, and make improved righteous fury something else, fury really doesn't sum up damage prevention to me, but rather something like:

Improved Righteous Fury:
While active Holy Damage you deal generates 10% extra threat (a bit like the old righteous fury really), or even While active you deal 10% extra holy damage.

[Arcand]

With the 3 damage reduction on the blessing, paladins drop behind warriors (and I presume druids) in mitigation for the same reasons as they did in tBC.

I'm not sure exactly what you meant by falling behind - we get the 3% reduction if anyone does.

If a warrior with D-stance and Sanctuary gets hit for 100 damage, he'll take 100x0.90x0.97 = 87.3 damage.

If a tankadin with Righteous Fury and Sanctuary gets hit for 100 damage, he'll take 100x0.94x0.97 = 91.18 damage.

The difference is 3.88 damage or 3.88%, so Sanctuary actually cuts the warriors' 4% mitigation edge by a probably-too-small-to-notice amount. But it doesn't hurt our relative strength.

I do agree, though, that an awful lot of tankadin buffs end up being warrior buffs as well, and the inverse seems less common.

[ulushnar]

Sanctuary
6% of base mana
Eachtime the Paladin is hit by a damaging attack (even it it´s dodged, parried or blocked) the raid gains Sanctuary, when the target blocks, parries, or dodges a melee attack the target will gain 1 rage, 2 runic power, or 2% of maximum mana.

I don't like it. Having it as a raid-wide buff in general isn't a good idea since even in a 25-man, there should only be three people getting hit at the same time.

It gives me nightmares of rage-starved Fury Warriors "accidentally" taunting or wandering in front of a boss for a quick recharge. Also, the rage/runic power gains are completely out of whack with the mana ones.

Of all the fixes I've seen, the best seems to be making Kings baseline. Two powerful buffs in the same tree is lunacy.

[Andox]

Sanctuary
6% of base mana
Eachtime the Paladin is hit by a damaging attack (even it it´s dodged, parried or blocked) the raid gains Sanctuary, when the target blocks, parries, or dodges a melee attack the target will gain 1 rage, 2 runic power, or 2% of maximum mana.

I don't like it. Having it as a raid-wide buff in general isn't a good idea since even in a 25-man, there should only be three people getting hit at the same time.

It gives me nightmares of rage-starved Fury Warriors "accidentally" taunting or wandering in front of a boss for a quick recharge. Also, the rage/runic power gains are completely out of whack with the mana ones.

Of all the fixes I've seen, the best seems to be making Kings baseline. Two powerful buffs in the same tree is lunacy.

Well, the Fury Warr issue isn´t a wide issue, the guild should punish them in someway. Now I do realize that my idea wasn´t the best. But since Blizz made alot of buffs raidwide I thought that maybe this would be a good idea.

[Rothes]

They should add the mana regen into righteous fury.
Kings should be baseline.
Sanctuary should be 3% reduction and dmg proc on dodge/block/parry.

This way you have the mana regen without Sanctuary on. I assume that was mostly for us anyways because warriors have a similar thing already.

[Rasmfrackn]

Empower Runeblade is a 5 minute cooldown that grants 25 RP.

-Splug

Thanks. Hrm... I don't think wowhead knows how to present DK abilities yet. The effects on it certainly aren't intelligible from a RP standpoint.

It's worth noting that it also activates all runes. The 25 RP seems like more of a afterthought/throw-in. Maybe the Butchery tallent (1 RP per 5 seconds, 10 RP upon landing an honorable kill) is easier to decipher?

-Splug

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=49483

Perfect, thanks. Yeah, they're 10x values behind the scenes there too. (200 instant, 20 per 5)

One of my main concerns is actually for warriors and bears. They have their own rage return talents for avoidance now (and/or more damage caused), but they can also have ours on top of that. It's not necessarily good to have to balance their rage gains against having a prot paladin around, and if they don't then when there is it may be "too easy"... or it may not be, I don't know.

That, and I really want kings AND sanc, and who's gonna give me the other one!

I can see a reason they can't bake it in though... Grace. The 3% less damage taken buff is one of the new buff categories, and currently it's prot paladins and disc priests. Prot warriors and bears can get it even without us there... they just have to bring a disc priest. I'm sure either option is suboptimal if they're the one tanking. But yeah, I don't think they'd let us keep our own 3% AND benefit from Grace, either. So... I'm at a loss.

[Rothes]

Empower Runeblade is a 5 minute cooldown that grants 25 RP.

-Splug

Thanks. Hrm... I don't think wowhead knows how to present DK abilities yet. The effects on it certainly aren't intelligible from a RP standpoint.

It's worth noting that it also activates all runes. The 25 RP seems like more of a afterthought/throw-in. Maybe the Butchery tallent (1 RP per 5 seconds, 10 RP upon landing an honorable kill) is easier to decipher?

-Splug

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=49483

Perfect, thanks. Yeah, they're 10x values behind the scenes there too. (200 instant, 20 per 5)

One of my main concerns is actually for warriors and bears. They have their own rage return talents for avoidance now (and/or more damage caused), but they can also have ours on top of that. It's not necessarily good to have to balance their rage gains against having a prot paladin around, and if they don't then when there is it may be "too easy"... or it may not be, I don't know.

That, and I really want kings AND sanc, and who's gonna give me the other one!

I can see a reason they can't bake it in though... Grace. The 3% less damage taken buff is one of the new buff categories, and currently it's prot paladins and disc priests. Prot warriors and bears can get it even without us there... they just have to bring a disc priest. I'm sure either option is suboptimal if they're the one tanking. But yeah, I don't think they'd let us keep our own 3% AND benefit from Grace, either. So... I'm at a loss.

What if they bake the 3% reduction into kings and move kings deeper in the tree?

Then make Sanc something like "While you have a shield equipped you regen 2% mana on dodge/block/parry".

Gives us self only mana regen and just 1 prot blessing. Though it could be argued that that blessing is now too powerful.

[Fridmarr]

Empower Runeblade is a 5 minute cooldown that grants 25 RP.

-Splug

Thanks. Hrm... I don't think wowhead knows how to present DK abilities yet. The effects on it certainly aren't intelligible from a RP standpoint.

It's worth noting that it also activates all runes. The 25 RP seems like more of a afterthought/throw-in. Maybe the Butchery tallent (1 RP per 5 seconds, 10 RP upon landing an honorable kill) is easier to decipher?

-Splug

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=49483

Perfect, thanks. Yeah, they're 10x values behind the scenes there too. (200 instant, 20 per 5)

One of my main concerns is actually for warriors and bears. They have their own rage return talents for avoidance now (and/or more damage caused), but they can also have ours on top of that. It's not necessarily good to have to balance their rage gains against having a prot paladin around, and if they don't then when there is it may be "too easy"... or it may not be, I don't know.

That, and I really want kings AND sanc, and who's gonna give me the other one!

I can see a reason they can't bake it in though... Grace. The 3% less damage taken buff is one of the new buff categories, and currently it's prot paladins and disc priests. Prot warriors and bears can get it even without us there... they just have to bring a disc priest. I'm sure either option is suboptimal if they're the one tanking. But yeah, I don't think they'd let us keep our own 3% AND benefit from Grace, either. So... I'm at a loss.

What if they bake the 3% reduction into kings and move kings deeper in the tree?

Then make Sanc something like "While you have a shield equipped you regen 2% mana on dodge/block/parry".

Gives us self only mana regen and just 1 prot blessing. Though it could be argued that that blessing is now too powerful.

@baked

Anyhow, yeah I think combining it with kings would be ok since it keeps the blessing count down. They could leave regular kings alone and just make sanctuary an improved kings. Either way, I'd rather not have 4 blessings.

[Rasmfrackn]

I could see "baking in" the mana return and removing the rage/RP portion of it. The 3% damage reduction is the part that needs to remain buffable for others.

The only thing is I think the mana return would have to be deeper in the tree than kings or impRF is now. impRF makes the most sense to me, but then they'd have to move it to 21+ and that'd screw the rets and holydins.