Deep Dive on Stats for a Mag Encounter

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby Coristad » Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:48 am

jere wrote:
Coristad wrote:
jere wrote:I looked at Daigon specifically. He buffs himself with Shield Block 2 times the entire night. Now many will argue that due to the cooldown < duration, you won't see refreshes in the combat log. Fair enough, but if you look closer, the 2 times that it appears in the combat log are for Attempt 5 and Attempt 6, which means for the trash (which can crush -- he was 14 times) and attempts 1-4, he never used Shield Block at all.

Furthermore, on attempts 5 and 6, he received 9-10 crushes, indicating Shield Block was down for some part of the time, so we should have seen more than one buff gain from shield block in both of those attempts. We only see one for each of those 2 attempts.

In short Daigon isn't doing his job if he is tanking. He doesn't even use it until attempts 5 and 6, and there he apparently isn't using it much as he recieves multiple crushes but only buffs it once (refreshes won't show, but if he gets crushed, then it isn't a refresh, but a buff gain).

Which channeler did each tank have again?


You see, that was the immediate conclusion I reached, as well. But to paraphrase Dale Carnegie, seek first to understand, then to be understood.

As it turns out, the tanks were deliberately choosing to allow themselves to be hit (and crushed for a comparatively small amount) by the channelers to prevent rage starvation. I honestly had no idea, so I'm glad I asked instead of going with the "hey look the tanks suck" approach I was initially considering ;-). So a little bit of knowledge really is a dangerous thing...


Unless he was tanking the first channeler, then rage starvation shouldn't be an issue. They have no need of extra rage as they aren't fighting dps for threat until thier target is the one being downed. All they have to do is auto attack, shield block every time it is up, and maybe the occasional shield slam, revenge, or sunder to keep threat above healers. They can let themselves build up rage while they wait by not going all out. Once the dps switches to their target, they can then go all out and should already have a decent threat lead to start with.

When I tank my channeler, I do JoL/SoL and merely keep up Holy Shield. Every so often, I throw out a consecrate for good measure. It's how I avoid being mana starved.

Not using shield block on progression content is not a good idea most of the time. They should be using rage pots if they need the extra rage anyways. If they are indeed rage starved, then they aren't taking damage and don't need to use health pots/etc. anyways.


That's interesting, now I just need to figure out how to convey that to the GL without the accompanying /gkick :D

Related to that, I was put on third channeler, and then second channeler. If I was moved to first channeler, I could theoretically frontload more threat and allow DPS to get it down faster?
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Postby Mortehl » Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:55 am

Coristad, you sell yourself short sir.


My suggestion going left to right from the entrance where the channeler in front of the entrance is the first:

1 Put a fruid on channeler one, let them do what fruids do.

2 Put an arms or fury warrior on number 2. All they need to do is cause some good damage and keep shield block up.

3 Whoever is the main tank for Loottheridon needs to be here.

4 and 5 Put either yourself or another prot spec here.

As soon as 3 is dead, your main tank should be standing under Mag. Have him WAIT for Mag to target someone (this is hugely important) THEN shield slam (or in a paladins case exorcism/JoR) and Mag is theirs. Bring Mag to the North wall between the second and third channeler position. This puts Mag diametrically opposite of whomever is tanking the fifth and most dangerous channeler.
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Postby Coristad » Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:00 am

Mortehl wrote:Coristad, you sell yourself short sir.


My suggestion going left to right from the entrance where the channeler in front of the entrance is the first:

1 Put a fruid on channeler one, let them do what fruids do.

2 Put an arms or fury warrior on number 2. All they need to do is cause some good damage and keep shield block up.

3 Whoever is the main tank for Loottheridon needs to be here.

4 and 5 Put either yourself or another prot spec here.

As soon as 3 is dead, your main tank should be standing under Mag. Have him WAIT for Mag to target someone (this is hugely important) THEN shield slam (or in a paladins case exorcism/JoR) and Mag is theirs. Bring Mag to the North wall between the second and third channeler position. This puts Mag diametrically opposite of whomever is tanking the fifth and most dangerous channeler.


How would that benefit the raid, overall? I can see putting the fruid on 1, as then there could be a quick swap to kitty to DPS the rest... but why stick a pally on 4 or 5? Just survivability?
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Postby Mortehl » Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:02 am

I'm assuming you're not going to be maintanking (otherwise put yourself in slot 3!)

You want to put your DPS class tanks (fruid warrior, et cetera) on mobs 1 and 2 so they're done tanking and can return to DPSing ASAP. That puts your MT on number 3 and leaves slot 4 and 5 open. Since you're there and I assume you'd rather do something other then healbot, thats where you go.
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Postby Coristad » Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:15 am

Yep, I'm not the MT, and I reached the conclusion of DPS contribution. I mentioned earlier in the thread that I was undergeared for that fight, but I've since hit uncrushable, so that might be more appropriate now.

Another weakness we identified was a deficiency of rogues, which meant not enough interrupts for the shadow bolt volleys to go around.

This is a great discussion and I'm learning a lot, thanks to all who've contributed!
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Postby jere » Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:56 pm

A couple of benefits I found at being the 5th channeler tank:

1. I get to do something productive for more of the fight

2. I free up more dps oriented tanks to dps after their targets are down

3. I can ranged taunt stray elementals off of people while I tank. Not a big deal, but I am better at that than warriors or druids are. This only works if you are the 5th channeler tank because if your dps is a bit slow and you are a cube clicker, you don't want any stray infernals messing up your cube clicking (they won't if your channeler was last).

Of course, once your channeler is down, you can toss stray FoL's on the healers and dps to help keep the raid healthy (even the MT). It takes the burden off the main healers for the later phases.
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