The future MT spec for 2.3???

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The future MT spec for 2.3???

Postby Tauxalot » Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:05 am

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

This is the build I am currently using. My reasoning:

- This is mainly for tanking raid bosses.
- I remove as much miss, dodge, parry I can from bosses with Precision/WE.
- I took out Improved Judgement because it always gets in the way of other cooldown abilities I use such as Holy Shield and Consecration. I always seem to have to wait after I refresh Holy Shield to judge anyways so this talent is sacrificial.
- I want Improved Seal of Crusader only because it is supposedly being changed to Sanctified Crusader and I want to be able to adjust for 2.3. Adding 3% crit AND using a judgement that benefits my own threat at the same time is just a Godsend.
- Reckoning scales inversely as you get better avoidance from better gear. It makes a 10% proc turn into a 4% proc. Another reason why I chose WE over it.
- Because of these changes I had to remove a talent point from Prot, so I just took out a point in Anticipation. Still uncrittable and I can make up that loss elsewhere.

What do you guys think? Tear it to shreds if you think it really won't work.
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Postby Anuji » Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:53 am

your judgement is ready when your other skills get ready too?
get another rotation?
i have the imp. judgement and never any problem with GCD.. just make an rotation with it and nothing stands in judgements ways
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Postby Tauxalot » Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:17 am

It's more of an unnecessary talent for tanking than anything else. Imp Judgement is good for ret paladins but when you have a 10 second cooldown Holy Shield you need to keep up and Judgement cooldown being ready at the same time, you choose Holy Shield everytime. Therefore, your Judgement becomes a 10 second cooldown spell anyways due to global.

Bottom line, Imp Judgement doesn't benefit tankadins all that much.
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Postby Gideon » Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:37 am

It's quite handy for aggro in situations where you wouldn't use Holy Shield (I'm thinking Void Reaver), but I can see your point.
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Postby Tresjynn » Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:12 am

Tauxalot wrote:It's more of an unnecessary talent for tanking than anything else. Imp Judgement is good for ret paladins but when you have a 10 second cooldown Holy Shield you need to keep up and Judgement cooldown being ready at the same time, you choose Holy Shield everytime. Therefore, your Judgement becomes a 10 second cooldown spell anyways due to global.

Judgement is independant of global cooldown. It doesn't start global cooldown. It doesn't wait for global cooldown.

/cast Holy Shield
/stopcasting
/cast Judgement

This works. The only thing you wait for is to reapply your seal. Which can wait.
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Postby Mortehl » Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:41 am

K. I like this build for the most part and it has me considering an experiment after this week's pvp respec. There's one flaw in your build which I strongly reccomend you think about though.

You're wasting 3 talent points on Imp JoTC. Imp JoTC nets you 28.5 +spell damage. The cost is way too high for something you can get with an enchant or 1 piece of gear change. I strongly reccomend you discard it, and move 2 points back into Imp Judgment and 1 point back into anticipation.

Other then that, I'm open to considering the impact of taking WE over reckoning. We can let the WWS parses speak for themselves over the course of a week.
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Postby Sabindeus » Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:39 am

Mortehl wrote:You're wasting 3 talent points on Imp JoTC. Imp JoTC nets you 28.5 +spell damage. The cost is way too high for something you can get with an enchant or 1 piece of gear change. I strongly reccomend you discard it, and move 2 points back into Imp Judgment and 1 point back into anticipation.


I feel like you didn't read his post...
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Postby Mortehl » Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:41 am

:oops:

Boy do I feel dumb.
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Postby matchbox » Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:04 am

i dont know if this has been said before but why not take the point out of kings instead of defense?
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Postby Tauxalot » Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:30 am

I may have to try that macro. I've been tieing my seal with my judgement in my macro I may have to try shield instead. Maybe put 2 points out of WE for that if that's possible.

And as far as kings is concerned, I enjoy having the buff for myself and in whatever 5 mans I am in. Many of my pallies actually have been redoing their specs to improve other blessings like wisdom or might and don't have kings. Its all about utility in raiding. Not having kings to me is such a shame for only one point.
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Postby jere » Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:32 pm

Tauxalot wrote:It's more of an unnecessary talent for tanking than anything else. Imp Judgement is good for ret paladins but when you have a 10 second cooldown Holy Shield you need to keep up and Judgement cooldown being ready at the same time, you choose Holy Shield everytime. Therefore, your Judgement becomes a 10 second cooldown spell anyways due to global.

Bottom line, Imp Judgement doesn't benefit tankadins all that much.


As far as rotations go, here is one EXAMPLE of how a cycle might change and the benefits it could provide. There are better cycles out there, but this is merely an example:

With Improved Judgement:
Code: Select all
00.0s: Judgement + HS
01.5s: Seal
08.0s: Judgement
10.0s: HS
11.5s: Seal
16.0s: Judgement + Seal
20.0s: HS
24.0s: Judgement + Seal
30.0s: HS
32.0s: Judgement + Seal
40.0s: Judgement + HS            <== Start of new cycle
41.5s: Seal
48.0s: Judgement
50.0s: HS
51.5s: Seal
56.0s: Judgement + Seal
60.0s: HS
and so on...


So you lose (2 GCDs + 2s) of seal damage and get 5 Judgements every 40s

Without Improved Judgement:

Code: Select all
00.0s: Judgement + HS
01.5s: Seal
10.0s: Judgement + HS
11.5s: Seal
20.0s: Judgement + HS
21.5s: Seal
30.0s: Judgement + HS
31.5s: Seal
40.0s: Judgement + HS            <== Start of new cycle
41.5s: Seal
50.0s: Judgement + HS
51.5s: Seal


You lose 4 GCD's and get 4 Judgments every 40 seconds

So going with Improved Judgment nets you: 1 more second of seal damage and an extra judgment every 40s

Just as an example, my JoR averages 720 dmg with full raid buffs and my SoR averages 140. My Weapon speed is 1.6s

1 second of SoR is 1/1.6*140 = 87.5 dmg

Total extra dmg = 807.5 over a 40s period or 20.1875 dps
Total extra threat = 1534.25 over a 40s period or 38.35625 tps

Of course, this is "perfect world" theorycrafting so it doesn't account for lag/user response time, but just wanted you to see the potential difference.

EDIT: Clarifying post some
Last edited by jere on Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Tauxalot » Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:53 pm

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

OK how bout something more like this?

I took 2 out of WE and put it back into Imp Judgement. Weapon Skill isn't too fantastic after getting 5+ skill so perhaps keeping it at 3/5 is best.
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Postby Hearthy » Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:03 pm

jere wrote:
Code: Select all
00.0s: Judgement + HS
01.5s: Seal
10.0s: Judgement + HS
11.5s: Seal
20.0s: Judgement + HS
21.5s: Seal
30.0s: Judgement + HS
31.5s: Seal
40.0s: Judgement + HS            <== Start of new cycle
41.5s: Seal
50.0s: Judgement + HS
51.5s: Seal


You lose 4 GCD's and get 4 Judgments every 40 seconds


I'd think the rotation without Imp. Judgement would be HS then Judge/Seal, not Judge/HS then Seal. You don't lose any seal damage and you judge just as often.

So with Imp. Judgement you lose 5 seconds of seal damage for an extra Judgement every 40 seconds.

Using your numbers, 5 seconds of SoR = 437.5 damage.
720 - 437.5 = 282.5, or ~7 dps, which is ~13.4 tps.
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Postby jere » Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:44 pm

Hearthy wrote:I'd think the rotation without Imp. Judgement would be HS then Judge/Seal, not Judge/HS then Seal. You don't lose any seal damage and you judge just as often.

So with Imp. Judgement you lose 5 seconds of seal damage for an extra Judgement every 40 seconds.

Using your numbers, 5 seconds of SoR = 437.5 damage.
720 - 437.5 = 282.5, or ~7 dps, which is ~13.4 tps.


no you lose 2 seconds of seal damage. If you change the way the cycle goes for one setup, change it for the other too, otherwise you are comparing two very different things. If you do HS first and S+J next then the sequence looks like:

Code: Select all
00.0s: HS
01.5s: Judgement + Seal
09.5s: Judgement
10.0s: HS
11.5s: Seal
17.5s: Judgement + Seal
20.0s: HS
25.5s: Judgement + Seal
30.0s: HS
33.5s: Judgement + Seal
40.0s: HS                            <== Start of new cycle
41.5s: Judgment+Seal

and so on...


So you lose 2 seconds of seal damage, not 5 if you compare two like sequences as opposed to two different sequences.

That's 720-140*2 = 440 dmg which is 11 dps or 20.9 threat.

I apologize for the use of a bad cycle. My main intent was to show that a cycle with improved Judgement is indeed more dps/threat than a cycle without it where the poster was saying you still have to wait for HS to come up, and that is not always the case. Whether a person thinks the points are worth it is up to the person I guess.

EDIT:

This was the post I originally responded to that implied that the extra judgment cooldown reduction was wasted. Which was what I was trying to show was incorrect. There is a small benefit.

Tauxalot wrote:It's more of an unnecessary talent for tanking than anything else. Imp Judgement is good for ret paladins but when you have a 10 second cooldown Holy Shield you need to keep up and Judgement cooldown being ready at the same time, you choose Holy Shield everytime. Therefore, your Judgement becomes a 10 second cooldown spell anyways due to global.

Bottom line, Imp Judgement doesn't benefit tankadins all that much.
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