The definitive WotLK raid buffs/class balance post

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Postby Jessiespano » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:30 am

Elsie wrote:Now, glyphs will make these changes admittedly more interesting or tolerable. Someone already made the spell damage from blessing of might point. We don't know quite yet if you get the benefit from a glyph if the buff is negated due to overlap, but it's fair to assume it does. So the question becomes:
If a class has all of its buffs covered, are their glyphs strong enough to still consider them even though it's a damage deficiency to bring them instead of another rogue/lock.

Like I said before, even without glyphs, Ret paladins still bring a very powerful debuff to the raid with JoW/JoL. Also, the blizzard post stated that if there's an overlapping buff (such as fel intelligence and arcane intellect/divine spirit) then the part that is more powerful will overwrite just that part of the buff. For instance, if you don't have a disc priest, you'll get your spirit buff from the fel hunter and your int buff from a mage.

I'm reasonably sure that they'll code code the redundancy check separate from the actual abililities, so that it only negates the specific part of the ability and not the entire thing.

Edit: To add in one more time that Hand of Sacrifice is very powerful.
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Postby Elsie » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:50 am

I'm using a ret paladin as an example "name holder" here only. You're right they have additional benefits beyond the scope of raid buffs mentioned. Though I'd point out that judges can be done by any raid paladin, and hand of sacrifice would probably be most used on the retadin himself.

So, if it makes you analyze the situation better, replace ret paladin with a fury warrior. Consider a raid with Imp blessing of might, a feral druid, a prot warrior or warlock, etc. What unique and useful debuffs/buffs/tricks would they have a raid would feel merits them over something else?
Intervene? Charge? I don't think someone in a pve setting would consider these desirable in a DPS to merit a spot. So, with less assumed DPS than a rogue, they can become a liability.

Then repeat for boomkin, etc. In an optimal set up (which progression favors) there will have to be a loser unless unique glyphs and similar DPS make up for buff loss.

Perhaps this is more pertinent for other DPS or healer classes than a retadin.
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:05 am

I'm kinda surprised that they didn't change PW:F to match commanding shout and blood pact. I guess priests need something special to offer?
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:25 am

Shoju wrote:Sorry I should have been more specific with this. I realize now that it was vague. Currently, outside of swp to down brutallus, there is no reason to bring a rogue to a raid. I have done more raiding with 0 rogues now than I have with a rogue (and I have a 70 rogue to raid with) and it's not missed. Now, my guild isn't into swp, but I know that the brut fight would demand a contingent of rogues to beat the 6 min enrage.


You *could* do that without rogues, but you'd have an uneccessarily hard time doing it.


This is only further demonstrated by the new buff/debuff list that lists mind numbing poison as the only debuff that rogues will get up. So that means....... Expose and hemo are self only at this stage of beta?


Well, there are a few buffs/debuffs missing from the list (e.g. BoW) so we don't know if Hemo is gone, or far more likely that it just doesn't have an analogous debuff elsewhere and thus wasn't listed. Also, what are you talking about with Expose Amor? It's listed right there in the post. Finally, the "(2nd Talent Spec TBA)" as a Phyisical Vulnerability debuff is widely believed to be coming from rogues.

Their is another big problem with rogues, and it's nothing that the player can help. Think about rogues. Now, think about the players that play rogues. Now think about what the general stereotype mentality people associate with a rogue player. People think rogues are rolled because we just want to PEWPEW MOAR PLZ. I hear more people bash on rogue players than any other class for being half brained, dimwitted, or unable to do anything but smash buttons.


Spare me the victim complex please. Ever hear of Huntard? Retardadin?



Run a dps report. 3k ap druid with 9% hit with a good rotation in cat form is going to outperform a rogue with 2k ap and better hit. Rogues have to overcome a HUGE hit rating deficit while cats just have 1.0 speed attacks that have to overcome the same hit rating as a ret pally or MS warrior. The 3k ap druid is also going to have about 10% more crit, and more 'oh poop buttons'

Even if the dps is slightly slanted towards the rogue, why WOULDN"T you want the druid? Especially in progression style content? What can a rogue do if something goes bad on a fight? blind? sure, 10secs..... Evasion tank? another 15.... a druid, is able to pop into DB form and take a couple of hits. if the healer catches on, a DB in cat gear can still tank trash if the poop hits the fan.


Blizzard's going to have this in mind when balancing. You're playing chicken little with nothing to go on.

I will sum up my point. You will suffer a 'slight' dps decrease in a raid, but end up with more buffs and more control over a bad situation by taking a shaman, druid, mage, or hunter over a rogue.

There isn't a way to currently combat this problem. With the consolidation of buffs/debuffs, the homogenization of gear, and the ability for every other dps class to actively do something besides pound on something, Rogues are on the short end of the stick.


Rogues haven't even gotten their 1st revision on talents. Your gloom and doom pronouncements are silly and premature. For the record, here's my rogue:

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... n=fizzmore

I like my rogue a lot, and I know something about what they're capable of in endgame raiding.
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Postby Dragonzbane » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:31 am

Jessiespano wrote:
I'm reasonably sure that they'll code code the redundancy check


Had to quote that.

Resume your discussion.
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Postby Elsie » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:34 am

Some of the 'capabilities' you list aren't really feasible in a 25 man raid environment. I mean, if you count off-tanking for ret paladins I'd just throw stun-lock, evasion, gouge, blind, etc at you. As far as I can recall, there are 0 boss fights in a 25-man a ret paladin is capable of tanking where RoS p1 enrage is usually handled by rogues.
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Postby lusisia » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:42 am

Elsie wrote:Some of the 'capabilities' you list aren't really feasible in a 25 man raid environment. I mean, if you count off-tanking for ret paladins I'd just throw stun-lock, evasion, gouge, blind, etc at you. As far as I can recall, there are 0 boss fights in a 25-man a ret paladin is capable of tanking where RoS p1 enrage is usually handled by rogues.


You're talking about a gimmick fight. The ultimate in gimmick fights in TBC honestly. You could say a pally couldn't tank P2 and thus no reason to bring them into BT.
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Postby Shoju » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:10 am

maybe I am a little doom and gloom. You have a nice rogue. It's better than mine. I gave up on PVE on my rogue and went to PVP because I was tired of the getting looked over for someone who could buff the group, drop totems, whatever. I went back to my pally and haven't stopped tanking since. my rogue is specc'd sstep, wearing meh gear, and does dailies. He used to be my main, and I keep looking for a reason to dust him off again, but nothing every gets me to that point.


sorry I will stop ranting.
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Postby Ferrix » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:38 am

As far as I know, rogues/locks tend to have the highest dps. So think of it like this. If your guild is raiding they have 2 choices. They can get all the necessary buffs with 7 classes, and get the necessary healers, then once buffs are out of the way, the other 10-15 spots in the raid are left open for DPS.

So a raid can theoretically stack rogues and pure dps classes because of the greater dps, or add more combat utility classes (like druids for combat res).

I think most guilds will choose the dps route which means there is little reason not to bring 5 rogues to a raid if they do better dps then a class who's buff is already covered. For most of the classes Shoju listed, there is no reason to bring them if their buff is already covered. Why bring a class who can bring a redundant buff and do 1500 dps, when you could just bring a rogue or warlock who can do 2k dps?

Yeah sometimes you might want a backup in case someone providing a valuable buff dies, but that tends to not be the case. You don't bring extra shaman to the raid and say it is in case one dies, instead you use those spots on classes that do the most DPS.

In my experience when I raid, I build the raid with the assumption we'll succeed and people will not fail at their jobs. I do not build redundant raids with extra people ready to take the spot of someone who fails at their job. If I need 1 shaman for totems, I will not take an extra one in case one of them stands in fire and dies. I do not add extra feral druids to the raid because one of the tanks might die and I might need the feral druid to stop tanking. If one tank keeps dying, instead of bringing the feral as backup, find why that tank is dying and fix it if it is fixable. I don't really know anyone who builds their raids around redundancy, you min/max in order to create the raid with the highest dps, while at the same time bringing the necessary buffs/tanks/healers, this means DPS classes benefit from the changes when you are min/maxing.

All this means Rogues may actually benefit from this change in min/maxing situations.
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Postby Playdoh » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:54 am

Or maybe it will be easier to keep a core group of 10 or 25 people together, instead of the coming and going of guild spots.

So if the core group of people actually stay together and progress at a decent pace, does it REALLY matter if a rogue does better dps than the enh shaman? Or will the balance become more of who actually shows up on time, with buffs, and are skilled at game mechanics?

Again I do not have a beta key, but I think all of this theory of who to bring and who not to bring is just QQ. Bring the person with the best skill and the best attitude :twisted: and let the bosses fall down dead.
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Postby Elsie » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:45 pm

You're talking about a gimmick fight. The ultimate in gimmick fights in TBC honestly. You could say a pally couldn't tank P2 and thus no reason to bring them into BT.

Wow, that's a stretch. I'm quite convinced you didn't read the post except for that line to make yourself look ignorant.
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Postby lusisia » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:09 pm

Elsie wrote:
You're talking about a gimmick fight. The ultimate in gimmick fights in TBC honestly. You could say a pally couldn't tank P2 and thus no reason to bring them into BT.

Wow, that's a stretch. I'm quite convinced you didn't read the post except for that line to make yourself look ignorant.


Now you're just being rude and argumentative. That doesn't belong here.

You were comparing a retribution paladin or a feral druid to a rogue specifically as what ELSE they bring to the raid and why someone would not bring a rogue because the class, by design, is selfish.

You then proceed to say there are 0 boss fights in a 25-man a ret paladin is capable of tanking yet a rogue can.

Which is it? Are you upset that rogues might be left out by some min/max world-first guild because they don't provide any buff to the fight and bring raw dps or are you not upset? Honestly I'm confused.

You're complaining about something that isn't even live yet and hasn't even had a first pass as a class.
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Postby Kitsuna » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:55 pm

Morendin wrote:heroism VS AW??
that's apples and grapefruit , compare AW to Deathwish if you want to get even to apples and pears, to bludgeon an analogy long after its death :oops:


You can say that about any two abilities, which doesn't make it any less a valid point. Both however ARE level 70 abilities. Avenging wrath is a 20% damage increase up for 40 seconds out of every 6 minutes. To an individual. Bloodlust is 30% haste to the entire friggin raid every 5 minutes.

Not so much a cry of "Unfair!" as, "Wow, if avenging wrath affected the entire raid it wouldn't be imba if bloodlust is any indication"
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Postby Elsie » Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:28 pm

You then proceed to say there are 0 boss fights in a 25-man a ret paladin is capable of tanking yet a rogue can.

Yes. I was responding to a post which maybe you missed? There are no 25-man bosses that a retribution paladin can tank and much trash assuming they are not in ret gear. Please view the original post I was responding to so you can understand my post.

Which is it? Are you upset that rogues might be left out by some min/max world-first guild because they don't provide any buff to the fight and bring raw dps or are you not upset? Honestly I'm confused.

You're complaining about something that isn't even live yet and hasn't even had a first pass as a class.

I play a paladin, not a rogue. In fact, if you've read this thread, I've stated that rogues will be one of the most sought after classes in WOTLK because buff overriding makes it that way. The meaning of my post was that rogues do bring a good amount of raid utility - just that in live it isn't anywhere near as potent as their own personal DPS raising abilities and in some cases conflicting too heavily with other classes.

I am rude to people when they don't read the post I responded to and latch on to a sentence used as an example. Your quote from me was essentially saying "A ret paladin can't tank a boss or hard mob any better than a rogue can" bearing in mind the mob you picked up evidently killed a -real tank- or a boss. The original post was refering to class benefits when all your main contributing buffs were consumed by other classes.

I wish people would stop bringing the "it isnt live, things will change" argument. That's an understood statement in beta. It also negates the point of talking about -anything-. "A build could come out tomorrow and they remove 3 classes" has equal validity.

...anyway. I certainly hope they significantly buff hemo to give rogues more 'options.' If hemo because the strongest rdps build but non-stacking, then rogues will certainly become more interesting. In my opinion, it would be akin to the other classes where you would not prefer more than 1 of a spec except for healing. It would round off their raid buffs rather well if they received the +4% physical dps buff, too.
+4% phys dmg, hemo, stuns, poisons, CC, and survivability CDs.
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:55 pm

To skirt the current back-and-forth, but stay on topic...

I really hate to toss out a "could you post this over there" to you fine fine beta testers, but! The new Replenishment thing REALLY seems like it would make more sense as a % of base mana, doesn't it? If spells are based on base mana, then regen should too. Otherwise I have a strong suspicion that a couple of raid tiers in, when casters (not us, of course...) are gaining lots of int, that Replenishment will be a faster-scaling regen than their costs. When that happens, they may very well "rebalance" it in such a way to reign in the top-geared casters that really reduces its value for lower-geared people.

I know scaling with gear is important, but regen is one of those sticky things because costs don't change commensurately.

Thoughts? Hopefully this at least crosses the devs' desks and gets a once-over, even if they don't end up agreeing.
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