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Is this the end of owning Rogues?

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby Keion » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:15 am

If your opponent is really dumb and undergeared you can kill warlocks.

Retri aura will be seriously beefed in WotLK BTW.
Arthas thought Stratholme is not cool enough and decided to perform some cooling.
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Postby Elsie » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:59 pm

A belf protection paladin is running to grab WSG flag. Greeting party of human rogue, gnome lock and nelf hunter waits in the flag room. Paladin runs through the door bubbled, stuns the gnome (thanks to+5% int gnome is smart enough to trinket) and BoFs out with the flag. Paladin spams self cleanse on the run removing sting, corruption, poison. Lock feels that something is wrong and fears before doting now, but feared paladin runs through the passage out of the flag room. Hunter keeps shooting but it does not seem to help. Sprinting rogue stuns the paladin but it changes little.

You can't carry the flag with Divine Shield up - good luck removing sting with dispel resistance, pet poison, and rogue poison. Not saying you won't get out the door - people in BGs are normally terrible.
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Postby GothicPL » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:52 pm

One on one, a good rogue will wear out a good prot pally given equal gear and skill.

Had our mana regen been stronger, it could have been a more fun and epic experience with multiple attempts at winning, but as things are today, I'm at less than 50% mana after several minutes of a rogue resetting the fight, while his energy is back at max and even his longer term cooldowns are getting back up again. Time is not on the prot pallie's side here.

Holy PvP gear is an interesting idea, but it lacks necessary mp5 to sustain the fight, and in prot spec you don't have pushback resistance. Wound Poison makes sure you cannot heal yourself to full using FoL only.

I have a rogue alt wearing mostly PvE gear, and I have no problems beating prot pallies because I know their weaknesses - I agree with others that it's simply a matter of using the right strat against a class.
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Postby Kelaan » Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:16 pm

elson wrote:I've lost to a grand total of two rogues since TBC started This includes rogues who have achieved 2kish arena ratings so they have at least some idea of how to pvp.


I think this is partly because protection spec paladins are relatively rare at high level arena play -- so the do't get much chance to learn how to do it RIGHT. I've often beaten a rogue soundly, only to have a much tougher fight the second and third times. (Stuns work well, as do things like applications of bleeds. Can we cleanse EA?)
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Postby Melathys » Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:33 pm

speaking of rogues..

- Riposte: Now generates a combo point.
- Mace Specialization: This will grant armor penetration when using a mace. (The warrior talent will as well.)
- Deflection: Reduced to 3 ranks for 2/4/6% parry. This should soften the prereq for Riposte.
- Fist Weapon Specialization: Merged with Dagger Specialization.
- Dagger Specialization: Renamed Close Quarters Combat, moved to tier 3.
-Dual Wield Specialization: Moved to tier 1. Lightning Reflexes swapped locations with it and still needs a little more “oomph”.

- Unfair Advantage and Stay of Execution: Change to more offensive/utility (read mobility) talents. Too much defense on this tier.
- Killing Spree: Weapon normalization to equalize effectiveness regardless of weapons carried.


sounds like maybe I could grab dagger spec -and- dual wield spec -and- opportunity! :shock:
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Postby Arjuna » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:28 pm

no, THIS is the end of "owning" rogues:

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/7/9336456598-rogue-update.html

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Postby Keion » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:49 pm

Elsie wrote:
A belf protection paladin is running to grab WSG flag. Greeting party of human rogue, gnome lock and nelf hunter waits in the flag room. Paladin runs through the door bubbled, stuns the gnome (thanks to+5% int gnome is smart enough to trinket) and BoFs out with the flag. Paladin spams self cleanse on the run removing sting, corruption, poison. Lock feels that something is wrong and fears before doting now, but feared paladin runs through the passage out of the flag room. Hunter keeps shooting but it does not seem to help. Sprinting rogue stuns the paladin but it changes little.

You can't carry the flag with Divine Shield up - good luck removing sting with dispel resistance, pet poison, and rogue poison. Not saying you won't get out the door - people in BGs are normally terrible.

Read more. I use divine shield as I run through the gate to the flag to provoke waste of cooldowns by less skilled players. As I take the flag I switch to BoF. And I normally get out of the flag room and far away unless a priest or a mage is defending the flag.
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Postby Saphier » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:13 pm

degre wrote:Actually, they're kinda both right.

The point is, in world PvP the Rogue cannot loose to a tankadin, unless he's an idiot. Has far too many way to escape.

However, the fact that he cannot loose doesn't mean that he can win, simply means that he can escape. Forced in a close environment like the arena, where one MUST die, the rogue has either the chance to escape forever and pray that the pally loose by quitting, or he can choose to attack and beat himself to death.


No, a prot pally will never kill an intelligent rogue. An intelligent rogue will eventually kill any prot pally.
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Postby Zonzede » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:19 pm

Saphier wrote:
degre wrote:Actually, they're kinda both right.

The point is, in world PvP the Rogue cannot loose to a tankadin, unless he's an idiot. Has far too many way to escape.

However, the fact that he cannot loose doesn't mean that he can win, simply means that he can escape. Forced in a close environment like the arena, where one MUST die, the rogue has either the chance to escape forever and pray that the pally loose by quitting, or he can choose to attack and beat himself to death.


No, a prot pally will never kill an intelligent rogue. An intelligent rogue will eventually kill any prot pally.


Blessing of Sanctuaty.
Try running us out of mana now =D
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Postby elson » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:22 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Lastly, I didn't say we were defenseless I said it's a fight that you can not win because of all the escape moves that a rogue has. A rogue has to be pretty dumb to die to a prot pally since we have no ability to burst them down, they can reset the fight ad nausem or simply run away. They have more cooldowns than we do in the first place, most of them are shorter, and they can reset some of them. A good rogue can reset the fight to continue to gain a bigger and bigger advantage each time.


This much I fully agree with. Forgive my frustration but it seemed to me like you were trying to say we stood no chance of survival against a skilled rogue. Surviving is more than possible, killing them is another matter entirely.
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Postby Saphier » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:29 pm

Zonzede wrote:
Saphier wrote:
degre wrote:Actually, they're kinda both right.

The point is, in world PvP the Rogue cannot loose to a tankadin, unless he's an idiot. Has far too many way to escape.

However, the fact that he cannot loose doesn't mean that he can win, simply means that he can escape. Forced in a close environment like the arena, where one MUST die, the rogue has either the chance to escape forever and pray that the pally loose by quitting, or he can choose to attack and beat himself to death.


No, a prot pally will never kill an intelligent rogue. An intelligent rogue will eventually kill any prot pally.


Blessing of Sanctuaty.
Try running us out of mana now =D


No problem, Prot paladins will still only be attacked from behind while stunned and left bleeding and poisoned.

You can survive by running away or by hoping they suddenly forget how to play and kill themselves on your holy shield.
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