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Is this the end of owning Rogues?

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Melathys » Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:41 am

have any of you played a rogue one on one versus a protection (and well geared) warrior or paladin? It can be quite a frustrating experience as you watch your much needed stuns fail one way or the other.

I'm speaking from experience from both sides (as paladin and rogue), but that means nothing versus theorycrafting. /shrug

but anyway, this seems to be a thread going nowhere, as no one is convincing the other side of anything.
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Postby Khayne » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:16 am

I´ll just add that while on my tankadin i do beat lots and lots of rogues, on my rogue i dont find tankadins bad unless they´re sitting on a node and i´d need to get it down fast.

Poisons that i use pretty much allways are Wound+Crippling since so many classes have some sort of self-healing, and also helps in killing stuff that is being healed. Crippling is a must to keep some people in my melee range anyway. So no CC breaking from poisons anyway.

thegreatheed wrote:
Elsie wrote:
Rogue, obviously, gets the opener.

Sap (if you're spamming consecrate)
Cheap Shot 4s
Kidney shot 5s
Gouge 3s (if needed)
....restealth...
sap 9 seconds
sap 6 seconds
cheap shot 4s
kidney shot 5s
gouge (if needed)
....restealth.... repeat about 5-8 times.



Seriously, how often is a rogue going to land all of those attacks versus a prot paladin with >50% pure avoidance. gouge WILL miss/parry/dodge HALF OF THE TIME. And be blocked at least 20% more.

not to mention bop to remove stuns, bubble to heal/bandage, trinket/etc/etc.

a rogue has to play PERFECTLY to beat a prot paladin. or the paladin has to make mistakes. a paladin of EQUAL skill and gear level will win. they just will.


the only time a rogue has EVER killed me was when i'm <30% health from aoe farming. even then they usually fail.


He will land all those attacks very often since you dont have 50%> pure avoidance when he´s keeping you in stuns/incapasitates/disorients for pretty much whole long, tedious, loooong time.

The avoidance you have is Miss and, umm, Miss. You dont dodge kidney shot because he´ll kidneyshot a moment before cheap shot ends.

Same with gouge, you don´t parry or block his gouge since you´ll be in kidney shot at the time he does it.

We got Bubbles! (one minute apart from each other remember too)
Yes, we can bandage twice. in which time he can do the same if you somehow actually got few swings in him, say trinket+HoJ and few melee hits before he trinkets and blinds you, maybe he needed to soak some concectarion damage too.

Trinket kidney shot? he can blind you and restealth, enter the part of elsies chain where he starts sapping and continue.
you trinket and immediately HoJ? he has his trinket too, trinket+blind, do as above.

There is no real Etc etc abilities for paladins for this fight except LoH which at the moment would also take the possibility of self-healing off.

You can and should use sporeggar shield with shield spike, BoSanc and holy shield. The unfortunate side is that you wont block in the fight if he does it right, maybe a block or two when you trinket one stun before he blinds as his auto-attacks are quite fast.

You can be sapped even if you spam concecrate in open floor btw. Many rogues i see dont do it, but it´s actually doable.

even above example dont use vanish, clos or sprint at all so in off-chance he gets unlucky on his stuns hitting your Miss chance, he has ways to recover (paladin can get some heals off but that only delays the fight)

There are ways and places to avoid that possibility however, but that depends on the place where you fight such as AV towers/bunkers. In a way they´re nice close quarter fights where rogue can LoS alot of spell damage, in a way it sucks because it´s hard to get that stealth opener on anyone with aoe to spam on the stairs up if they position themselves in a way that makes shadowstepping them impossible.

Rogues have to play Pretty Good to beat a prot paladin of any skill, but if that Pretty Good rogue attacks a Great paladin, the paladin can´t do anything else really except run to some bg Npc guards or other players for help, or die.

All this doesn´t account for stoneform though, and the way i go about killing paladins quite often does have ruptures instead of constant sapping since it´d usually happen in bg´s and i´d need to try speed the kill up abit there because someone else is going to come there anyway to scale the odds on one of us and i´d rather not have a 2vs1 on me. Other than being lucky on perception (popping it just as i´m going in) and stoneform, dont see anything that´d mess with me from paladins.

Mr. protadin wrote:Die, Die, DIE! Why dont you DIE??

Pvp rogue wrote:Because beneath this mask there´s more than flesh, beneath this mask there´s an idea. An idea that no matter what you do, i´ll have cooldowns to counter it


off-topic, haven´t heard anyone else notice that the downranking nerf is kinda nice buff to rogues since people wont be able to spam rank 1 rain of fires, concecrates, blizzards or arcane explosions as stealth detection at allmost 0 mana cost.

Melathys, i guess we just agree to disagree. I dont duel prot plates much and i dont see them that often in bg´s, but personally i haven´t felt so frustrated. Not like rogues would utterly often dominate prots or other way around since it´s a boring fight usually, so most of time i´ll rather target the delicious cak...clothies.

What really frustrates me is good resto or feral druids since the bastards never run out of mana, they make me bleed, they have dodge instead of dodge+parry (so 360 degrees working avoidance when not stunned), they use more armor instead of armor+block (so again 360 degrees mitigation).

i hate them on all my characters to play against except warlock.
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Postby Elsie » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:47 am

I was going to post something but the gist of my reply what you can't avoid attacks from behind, while you're incapacitated, or while you're stunned.

We say a 'good rogue' can beat any prot paladin. I don't consider this true. It may take a player with some smarts or anyone decent enough to look it up, but you can keep a paladin pretty much CC'd and out of commission for 90% of a fight. A mediocre rogue can simply follow the motions.
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Postby moduspwnens » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:38 am

I'm not sure if it's a V for Vendetta reference or a Dark Knight reference. I'm leaning toward V, but either way, it was quite nerdy.
I rule.
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Postby Lother » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:44 am

Boldbeard wrote:
Melathys wrote:
Nich wrote:ANy decent rogue should still wipe the floor with a prot pally.


wat


huh? Dont know what haxx server rogues you've been playing against, but it takes a REALLY GOOD rogue in REALLY GOOD gear to beat a prot pally. To give you a comparison, my good friend can barely beat me in my Kara gear. He's an 1800 rogue with S3/S4; my arena is around 1350. I can even bean him occasionally. We only duel for his sake, for the challenge.

OT: But we used to duel back in vanilla and I would beat him wearing only a Helm, Boots, Shield and a grey backpiece. I punched & HS'd him to death...lol.

As far as the shield removal...it's uptime is only ~15%...so meh. Maybe will help them close you out, but if your smart and keep your HP up...he shouldnt be able to stun lock or burst you dead, especially with AD.


Any rogue who knows how to fight a prot pally can beat one. They don't kill themselves on your shield like most downie rogues do. They poison, kite, stun, poison, vanish, stunlock, poison, kite

Its a long process but they will OOM you and then kill you
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Postby Moses » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:51 am

360 degree dodge????? Since when? Mobs dodge 360, players only from the front 180... last time i checked anyway.
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Postby Brute » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:02 am

I was killed by a rogue for the first time last night in a 1v1 duel.

Every single other rogue I've ever fought thought he was a warrior in leather and would simply beat himself to death.

Not this rogue. I think he maybe ate 2-3 Holy Shield charges over the whole fight. The only reflective damage he took was from Ret aura because either I was stunned or he was stealthed for the entire fight. There wasn't anything I could do. He'd hit me in the back while I was stunned and then he'd run away and do it again.

It took him 7 minutes to kill me but he was very patient and just wore me down. I barely got any licks on him at all.
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Postby Moses » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:05 am

Brute wrote:I was killed by a rogue for the first time last night in a 1v1 duel.

Every single other rogue I've ever fought thought he was a warrior in leather and would simply beat himself to death.

Not this rogue. I think he maybe ate 2-3 Holy Shield charges over the whole fight. The only reflective damage he took was from Ret aura because either I was stunned or he was stealthed for the entire fight. There wasn't anything I could do. He'd hit me in the back while I was stunned and then he'd run away and do it again.

It took him 7 minutes to kill me but he was very patient and just wore me down. I barely got any licks on him at all.


drink more
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:06 am

Brute wrote:I was killed by a rogue for the first time last night in a 1v1 duel.

Every single other rogue I've ever fought thought he was a warrior in leather and would simply beat himself to death.

Not this rogue. I think he maybe ate 2-3 Holy Shield charges over the whole fight. The only reflective damage he took was from Ret aura because either I was stunned or he was stealthed for the entire fight. There wasn't anything I could do. He'd hit me in the back while I was stunned and then he'd run away and do it again.

It took him 7 minutes to kill me but he was very patient and just wore me down. I barely got any licks on him at all.


Yeah, and I'd submit, that the rogues that know how to do this may not be particularly good, they just happen to know this strategy. They are also pretty rare, and you will carve up the vast majority of rogues you come across. This type of fight though, is one of the most frustrating things to experience and when it happens, you'll remember it.
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Postby Brute » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:11 am

Moses wrote:
Brute wrote:I was killed by a rogue for the first time last night in a 1v1 duel.

Every single other rogue I've ever fought thought he was a warrior in leather and would simply beat himself to death.

Not this rogue. I think he maybe ate 2-3 Holy Shield charges over the whole fight. The only reflective damage he took was from Ret aura because either I was stunned or he was stealthed for the entire fight. There wasn't anything I could do. He'd hit me in the back while I was stunned and then he'd run away and do it again.

It took him 7 minutes to kill me but he was very patient and just wore me down. I barely got any licks on him at all.


can't drink when sapped.

drink more
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Postby Elsie » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:21 am

I should seek to remind people that Rupture ends. Just time it correctly with your combo points to where it doesn't where you can't re-sap.
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Postby Nich » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:47 am

It's easy for me to beat a bad rogue. Bad rogues try and kill you from the front, whether they're daggers or swords, and die to a combination of imp HS, BoSanct, and the Spooregar shield.

Similarly, it's easy for a good rogue to kill a bad pally.


But a good rogue and a good pally? I've found it's never 100% certain in the rogue's favour, but the rogue will have the majority of wins. Hit and run, hit and run, until you're oom. Constantly keep you in combat. If you can bandage, so can the rogue, and while you're both not fighting his CDs are resetting. Rogues who stun mostly hit from behind don't have to worry about most of our reflective damage. Us trying to heal ourselves is mostly just a waste of mana that we could use for other things, because the heals are so slow and so inefficient. Assuming they aren't kicked or the rogue doesn't use deadly throw and have pvp gloves.

And, uh, it's the WotLK forum - there's no using downranked consecrate to keeps rogues annoyed, come 3.0. Do you really want to blow that much of your mana pool?
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Postby Keion » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:59 am

A belf protection paladin is running to grab WSG flag. Greeting party of human rogue, gnome lock and nelf hunter waits in the flag room. Paladin runs through the door bubbled, stuns the gnome (thanks to+5% int gnome is smart enough to trinket) and BoFs out with the flag. Paladin spams self cleanse on the run removing sting, corruption, poison. Lock feels that something is wrong and fears before doting now, but feared paladin runs through the passage out of the flag room. Hunter keeps shooting but it does not seem to help. Sprinting rogue stuns the paladin but it changes little. Now BoF ends and here the most interesting things happen. Most likely paladin will be zerged almost in mid-field still trying to cleanse dozen of debuffs applied by almost entire enemy force, while his druid friends waits for flag respawn in empty enemy flag room.

Technically paladin is dead. Practically he won cause his druid friend will bring the WSG flag. Surely rogue and hunter should have not chaced the paladin and stayed in the flag room instead. For human player it's hard to stand still when you see some gay looking guy running away with your flag.


Can rogues kill boomkins?
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Postby Dragonzbane » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:11 am

I think the problem that some of these folks maybe not all are having is that they are fighting rogues and think that the rogues they are fighting are actually good.


Without "unlimited time" or back-up a good rogue won't even bother with you.
He know's he can most likely beat you but it will take a long time.

The more time he spends on you the less time he's getting easier kills or allowing you time to actually get help.

7 minutes (as stated above) is a long time to go without someone else intervening especially in a BG. In open world PvP you could always Shield/Hearth and there's nothing he could do about it.

I've never Shield/Hearth in a fight, but in the back of every I have faced mind is the fact that I could meaing all that time spent was a waste for them.

That said I've been beaten by a rogue 1v1 less than 5 times in 3years.
Last edited by Dragonzbane on Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Blutreich » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:12 am

smart prot pally > dumb rogue
dumb prot pally < smart rogue

spec gear and practice pvping helps some.
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