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Stacking for 10-mans (changes lol)

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Postby Dorvan » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:28 am

Elsie wrote:That warrior is not tanking. That warrior is soaking. He is not there to hold aggro or grab the lynx ghost. The extent of his 'tanking' is putting on a shield which is no more tanking than a holy paladin using bubble to avoid Chain Lightning from the totem.


It's a semantic argument, but there are a number of fights were threat generation isn't a serious consideration. that doesn't mean there's not tanking involved. Even if I accepted that argument, what is that soaker doing on bear boss?
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Postby moduspwnens » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:31 am

Let's not argue what "tanking" is. It's irrelevant. :P

Don't forget, though, that hunter pets are going to have a tanking tree. Perhaps some "offtanking" roles could be filled by them.
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Postby Keion » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:33 am

Bloodboil is irrelevant as in phase 1 everyone is threat capped. It's good for ranged that they need to move, otherwise someone would start to epeen and overaggro the tanks. Reaver of the void would be a better example of melee- friendly boss.

Anyway I expect 10 mans to favor ranged. And bosses that need kicking will be doable with 2 mages and 2 locks. And feral druids will still be the best offtanks. As for 2 healers I do not know. If it goes live than in WotLK we will have:

Heroics:
20% Tanks, 20% Healers, 60% DPS
10 Man:
10% Tanks, 20% Healers, 70% DPS.
25 Mans:
12% Tanks, 32% healers, 56% DPS.

Lack of tanks was problem of PuGs in TBC. As raids and PvP required few tanks and it's usually what determines people's spec it was hard to PuG a tank for heroic. On the other side it was hard for guilds to find enough healers for raids. In WotLK will be easier to find healers for 10-mans, but the gap between 10-mans and 25-man raids will become truly huge. You need to gear up this army of healers somewhere. And the shortage of tanks for PuGs will only get worse.
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Postby Elsie » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:38 am

Well, threat may not be a serious consideration but it must still be generated above others. I believe a case that would exemplify your argument is Kalecgos, where the speed of threat generation is less of a consider than maintaining its existence.

DPS for the case we're considering (ie, "1 true tank"). It's entirely possible to solo tank the bear boss. Divine Shield removes the debuff and/or bleeds. Stoneform removes bleeds. Warriors would have shield wall / last stand if necessary in the brief dire times.

The bear boss debuff actually lapses if you have a significant avoidance string and the bleeds appear capable of missing. So if one were to span their CDs properly with high avoidance it's actually quite possible.

Bloodboil is irrelevant as in phase 1 everyone is threat capped. It's good for ranged that they need to move, otherwise someone would start to epeen and overaggro the tanks. Reaver of the void would be a better example of melee- friendly boss.

Archimonde then. Or Void Reaver. We're interested in cases that would reduce the ABILITY to do damage, not whether or not more damage is possible due to another's actions (in this case, the tank's threat).
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Postby Grothnir » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:54 am

We're talking about a world where dps warriors, non-prot paladins, and even non-Feral druids have substantially increased threat generation over tBC.

We're talking about a world built more around mitigation than avoidance, where a Ret pally slapping on a shield probably has more BV than the prot paladin (and the same goes for Arms/Fury warriors relative to Prot).

We're talking about a world where the Four Horsemen are being reworked to be fought in a 10-man using non-traditional tank classes to tank some of the bosses.

We're talking about a post-ZA world where a lot of people run 10-mans, even as progression, with a pure meatshield in the OT role. Any goober with reasonable armor and stamina can be the second tank in ZA.

Are we seriously going to have a semantics argument over what constitutes "one tank"?

That's a vacuous pit of phail.

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Postby Ferrix » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:16 am

I thought there was a post stating that they want ret pallys, or arms/fury warriors, and anything with a tanking tree, to be able to tank normal 5 mans without needing a "tank" spec, which is why you see ret pallys tanking in beta. I think they also said that they want the raids to actual require a tank specced character. So I doubt you'll find many ret paladins or arms warriors tanking in Naxx.
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Postby Grothnir » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:37 am

Ferrix wrote:I thought there was a post stating that they want ret pallys, or arms/fury warriors, and anything with a tanking tree, to be able to tank normal 5 mans without needing a "tank" spec, which is why you see ret pallys tanking in beta. I think they also said that they want the raids to actual require a tank specced character. So I doubt you'll find many ret paladins or arms warriors tanking in Naxx.

They want the raids to require "a tank specced character."

One. Uno. The loneliest number.

They might decide that they want more than one tank spec'd character in a 10-man, but that would really be unnecessary and is not currently supported by their (limited) statements on the subject.

ZA is frequently OT'd by non-Prot tanks. Hell. I think the place is easier that way, even now. More dps beats a limp-wristed OT in a single-tank fight, and the multi-tank fights really only require one tank and one meatshield. JohnDoeArmsWarrior in his PVP gear is enough for that.
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Postby honorshammer » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:09 pm

Rothes wrote:That interview is from May (which is fairly old compared to the rate things change pre-release) and I can't watch it at work. But I would bet that most 10 mans will require 2 tanks and 3 healers until you out gear it.


You are quite correct that the interview is from May, and that their plans may have changed. However, to my knowledge they have not communicated any change so I am forced to go with the last information on the subject as it was presented.
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Postby Boldbeard » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:07 pm

Also, upping Tank DPS has removed some of the 'pain' associated with spec'ing/gearing a tank. We can expect to see an uptick in the % of Pallies and Warriors having Protection just because the like the spec from more role playing perspective and with their dps not longer being attrociously horrible...they will play the spec.

It's quite possible that Tanks are about to become a dime a dozen. :(


Edit: On second thought....GOOD tanks will still be hard to find I think.
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Postby moduspwnens » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:09 pm

Boldbeard wrote:Also, upping Tank DPS has removed some of the 'pain' associated with spec'ing/gearing a tank. We can expect to see an uptick in the % of Pallies and Warriors having Protection just because the like the spec from more role playing perspective and with their dps not longer being attrociously horrible...they will play the spec.

It's quite possible that Tanks are about to become a dime a dozen. :(


I've never bought this idea. If you don't play a tank because he doesn't do good DPS, he still won't, it'll just be better. Also, I don't know what the thought process would be like.

"I don't play a tank in TBC. It's boring, I feel like I'm not doing much DPS."
"I play a tank in WotLK. It's much more fun to be doing more damage, but still certainly not as much as if I were DPS spec'd."

Eh, I don't think it'll happen. They certainly won't be the good tanks, either. Yaknow, the ones that tank or don't tank based on DPS. Just my two cents.
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Postby Mordinm » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:21 pm

moduspwnens wrote:
Boldbeard wrote:Also, upping Tank DPS has removed some of the 'pain' associated with spec'ing/gearing a tank. We can expect to see an uptick in the % of Pallies and Warriors having Protection just because the like the spec from more role playing perspective and with their dps not longer being attrociously horrible...they will play the spec.

It's quite possible that Tanks are about to become a dime a dozen. :(


I've never bought this idea. If you don't play a tank because he doesn't do good DPS, he still won't, it'll just be better. Also, I don't know what the thought process would be like.

"I don't play a tank in TBC. It's boring, I feel like I'm not doing much DPS."
"I play a tank in WotLK. It's much more fun to be doing more damage, but still certainly not as much as if I were DPS spec'd."

Eh, I don't think it'll happen. They certainly won't be the good tanks, either. Yaknow, the ones that tank or don't tank based on DPS. Just my two cents.


You do have people who like to tank but spend a significant doing solo content and don't like a tank spec for that. The "I don't want to respec every day and I don't want to spend an hour trying to get something done that I could do on a mage in 10 minutes. So I guess I won't tank at all."

That and deathkinghts are supposed to be viable tanks in any spec.

I know my pally would be ret if I didn't have a mage and a rouge to grind out cash and daily quests on. In fact my pally was ret for the SSO rep grind.
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:59 pm

Our healing lead respecced elemental for the week between raid sessions, and last night he was mentioning how awesome it was to get 150g in ~30-40 minutes doing SSO dailies.

30-40 minutes... I wonder what it's like. I think a full circuit on the Isle takes me 60-80, but I haven't done it in a while I guess.
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Postby Arjuna » Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:57 pm

Grothnir wrote:Why not spend time in a more profitable manner, like cataloging your belly-button lint?

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