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Blessing of Sanctuary as % Damage Reduction....

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Postby Grothnir » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:57 am

Io.Draco wrote:What im saying is that group composition won't mattter shit in 10 mans , its in 25 mans that it will matter

Um.... no.

That's exactly the opposite of what this change is going to cause.

With a 25-man raid, your first 10-12 people will be VERY specific, so you can get the buffs and debuffs you need. After that, you will just fill all the remaining slots (more than half the raid!) with the highest output dps/healers and the strongest tanks.

If they do their job right, this means the best players (or at least the best intersection of skill and gear). Group composition becomes almost meaningless after the first 12, provided you have X healers and Y tanks.

10-mans, on the other hand, will be slightly more rigid, if you want to min-max for buffs/debuffs.

Also, I find it amusing that you're so dismissive of 10-mans. You've never seen a progression 10-man, because the game has never had any. One cannot assume that they will actually be any easier in execution. They are only demonstrably easier in terms of people herding. Adding people does NOT necessarily make things more difficult. Historically, Blizz's version of more difficult is "make the numbers bigger" not "make the fight more interesting or complex."

Also note that for people in Kara/T4 gear, ZA is far less forgiving an instance than SSC, because you have less redundancy. Of course, when you go in there with T5+ gear, it feels like a joke, but when ZA and SSC are both progression for you, most of SSC is easier.
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Postby Dragonzbane » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:37 am

Io.Draco wrote:And btw I dunno about you but I have rarely seen a raid without at least 2 holy palas :P


Well, I don't know about your Holy Paladins but everyone I know is going for Sheath.

Aside from that, I doubt you've seen too many raids with a Discpline Priest in TBC. That will most likely be changing in WotLK, now which healer is going to lose their spot to make up for that?
Druid? Doubt it.
Shaman? Yeah right.
Holy Priest? Maybe.
Holy Paladin? Most likely.
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Postby Amarant_Pally » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:57 am

Dragonzbane wrote:Well, I don't know about your Holy Paladins but everyone I know is going for Sheath.

Aside from that, I doubt you've seen too many raids with a Discpline Priest in TBC. That will most likely be changing in WotLK, now which healer is going to lose their spot to make up for that?
Druid? Doubt it.
Shaman? Yeah right.
Holy Priest? Maybe.
Holy Paladin? Most likely.


A-yup.

Even if they "beefed up" Beacon of Light, it needs a concept change, because all it is is a *slightly* different Tranquility (in that it's targeted, not PBAoE). 2 Raiding Tree-Druids and predictable-splash-damage-incoming? The term "Tree-Hugger" comes to mind.
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Postby lusisia » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:01 am

Dragonzbane wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:And btw I dunno about you but I have rarely seen a raid without at least 2 holy palas :P


Well, I don't know about your Holy Paladins but everyone I know is going for Sheath.

Aside from that, I doubt you've seen too many raids with a Discpline Priest in TBC. That will most likely be changing in WotLK, now which healer is going to lose their spot to make up for that?
Druid? Doubt it.
Shaman? Yeah right.
Holy Priest? Maybe.
Holy Paladin? Most likely.


I just don't see how any of this causes someone to lose their spot.

There's plenty of room in a 25-man for all types of healers. 10-man, not so much but honestly, I'll be running 10-mans with my people and the healers we have happen to be priest, shammie and pally. And not everyone of them can make it every time we go out.

EDIT: let me clarify. The only people these changes are going to hurt are the people who had a cushy spot in some min/max world first guild.
"then somehow people manage not to see the forty fucking foot tall of fucking fiery flames of fucking doom ... and we wipe." - Isolfr
"It turns out that a large number of people are whiny motherfuckers ..." - PsiVen
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Postby Melathys » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:19 am

even beacon holy paladins will likely go into ret tree. its simply more useful for the raid. Imp might, 3% crit from judges, 5% crit healing (more powerful healing is always useful to the raid) while going into the prot tree brings.. kings and imp devo aura. which are useful to be sure, but I don't see holy paladins taking those unless there isn't a prot pally already taking them.

so, if holy isn't going for sheath, all 15 points in ret tree are useful. No reason to go beyond Conviction if you're not picking up sheath. Imp might. imp judgements, not necessarily as useful, as judgements of pure is 30 secs. heart of the crusader 3% raid wide crit, useful. Conviction 5% spell crit, useful.

whereas 12 of 18 points in protection do nothing for the raid. (assuming a minimum of 18 to pick up kings and imp devo) 1 point for kings, 3 for imp devo, and I'll go ahead and consider 2 into guardians favor as useful, but thats up to debate. If you don't consider guardians favor as raid useful, it would actually make 14 of 18 prot talent points useless for the raid.

So, even if beacon got "fixed", the chances of holy still going into the ret tree seems likely.
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Postby Jessiespano » Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:48 pm

Melathys wrote:even beacon holy paladins will likely go into ret tree. its simply more useful for the raid.

Careful using redundant talents with a protection paladin as an argument, since it's also perfectly valid to point out that specing into ret as your off-tree overlaps in utility whereas protection offers some stacking utility. Not to mention the fact that a protection paladin can get a lot more use out of the points freed up by a holy paladin providing kings/imp devotion.

The point that you made that should be taken into mind is that some of the points in protection are completely pointless for a healer. While some of the ret tree stuff will be redundant, none of it really counts as pure 'filler' talents. However, a holy paladin putting points into anything besides Guardian's Favor, Imp RF, BoK, Divine Guardian, or Imp Devo is pretty much just dumping them into trash to get to the good stuff, and Ret no longer shares that dilemma. I think they could actually go a little further with the Hand concept and make the low-level protection talents very appealing. This tree is a little cluttered, but is along the lines of what I was thinking of.
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