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The definitive WotLK raid buffs/class balance post

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Postby lusisia » Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:59 am

I like to define a nerf as a reduction in the functionality of an ability, skill or talent without a comparable modification somewhere else to balance out the reduction.

I really don't consider the change to JotW to be a nerf. It previously affected only 3 people and was 20% of the damage done returned as mana. Now it grants mana return to 10 people as mp5.

It just doesn't feel like a nerf to me. It feels like a balance being able to affect more people with a trade off on the mana return.
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Postby Sharlos » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:02 am

Bobness wrote:Time to look out for another Likely change as a consequence...


Benediction:-
Reduces the Mana Cost of your Offensive abilities by 5%/10%/15%/20%/25%


fixed
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Postby Origon » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:04 am

Would need to make clear distinctions for "offensive" then. otherwise holy shock would cost less vs enemies (and holy shield CAN be offensive)
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Postby Proudfoot » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:15 am

lusisia wrote:I like to define a nerf as a reduction in the functionality of an ability, skill or talent without a comparable modification somewhere else to balance out the reduction.

I really don't consider the change to JotW to be a nerf. It previously affected only 3 people and was 20% of the damage done returned as mana. Now it grants mana return to 10 people as mp5.

It just doesn't feel like a nerf to me. It feels like a balance being able to affect more people with a trade off on the mana return.


I'd consider it a large nerf. JotW wont return enough mana now to even let the Ret paladin keep judging let alone put out great DPS. It's rather lame that they think "balanced" means EXACTLY the same. So much for uniqueness.
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Postby lusisia » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:19 am

Proudfoot wrote:
lusisia wrote:I like to define a nerf as a reduction in the functionality of an ability, skill or talent without a comparable modification somewhere else to balance out the reduction.

I really don't consider the change to JotW to be a nerf. It previously affected only 3 people and was 20% of the damage done returned as mana. Now it grants mana return to 10 people as mp5.

It just doesn't feel like a nerf to me. It feels like a balance being able to affect more people with a trade off on the mana return.


I'd consider it a large nerf. JotW wont return enough mana now to even let the Ret paladin keep judging let alone put out great DPS. It's rather lame that they think "balanced" means EXACTLY the same. So much for uniqueness.


Maybe. I think we need to see how it plays out in practice. If mana is such an issue for ret then they will obviously always get a picked on each tick because they'll be hurting so bad (supposedly).

I full expect it to be tuned a bit and to see some mana cost reduction in the ret tree.

One area where I WOULD consider it a nerf is that it doesn't scale well in 5-mans or solo play at face value.
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Postby Proudfoot » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:29 am

lusisia wrote:
Proudfoot wrote:
lusisia wrote:I like to define a nerf as a reduction in the functionality of an ability, skill or talent without a comparable modification somewhere else to balance out the reduction.

I really don't consider the change to JotW to be a nerf. It previously affected only 3 people and was 20% of the damage done returned as mana. Now it grants mana return to 10 people as mp5.

It just doesn't feel like a nerf to me. It feels like a balance being able to affect more people with a trade off on the mana return.


I'd consider it a large nerf. JotW wont return enough mana now to even let the Ret paladin keep judging let alone put out great DPS. It's rather lame that they think "balanced" means EXACTLY the same. So much for uniqueness.


Maybe. I think we need to see how it plays out in practice. If mana is such an issue for ret then they will obviously always get a picked on each tick because they'll be hurting so bad (supposedly).

I full expect it to be tuned a bit and to see some mana cost reduction in the ret tree.

One area where I WOULD consider it a nerf is that it doesn't scale well in 5-mans or solo play at face value.


We do need to see how it plays out but take this into account. We will be wearing warrior gear so we will literally have base mana. In live I have to pot every 2 mins just to keep dpsing even with judgement of Wisdom up. In Wrath we can't pot non-stop like we do now and I don't want to. The mana return from this talent wasn't even tested properly in the old form since it never did split the mana. Downranking isn't an option anymore either.
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Postby lusisia » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:42 am

Proudfoot wrote:
lusisia wrote:
Proudfoot wrote:
lusisia wrote:I like to define a nerf as a reduction in the functionality of an ability, skill or talent without a comparable modification somewhere else to balance out the reduction.

I really don't consider the change to JotW to be a nerf. It previously affected only 3 people and was 20% of the damage done returned as mana. Now it grants mana return to 10 people as mp5.

It just doesn't feel like a nerf to me. It feels like a balance being able to affect more people with a trade off on the mana return.


I'd consider it a large nerf. JotW wont return enough mana now to even let the Ret paladin keep judging let alone put out great DPS. It's rather lame that they think "balanced" means EXACTLY the same. So much for uniqueness.


Maybe. I think we need to see how it plays out in practice. If mana is such an issue for ret then they will obviously always get a picked on each tick because they'll be hurting so bad (supposedly).

I full expect it to be tuned a bit and to see some mana cost reduction in the ret tree.

One area where I WOULD consider it a nerf is that it doesn't scale well in 5-mans or solo play at face value.


We do need to see how it plays out but take this into account. We will be wearing warrior gear so we will literally have base mana. In live I have to pot every 2 mins just to keep dpsing even with judgement of Wisdom up. In Wrath we can't pot non-stop like we do now and I don't want to. The mana return from this talent wasn't even tested properly in the old form since it never did split the mana. Downranking isn't an option anymore either.


I understand but to say we will have 0 int on gear might be pushing it. We have yet to see Tier gear. Existing ret gear has int. T6 provides 127 int for the set. S4 ret set provides 144 int.

If they're considering that T6 will be enough to get you into Naxx, then you won't be raiding with base mana. Your mana pool will go up with each level as well.

If you consider that the SW T6 items don't have any int on them, you can replace your boots, belts and bracers with upgrades along the way and still be in the same mana position you are now. Let's not forget that with JoWis actually SCALING now, you might not have any mana problems at all.

Just trying to be level headed about it ;)
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"It turns out that a large number of people are whiny motherfuckers ..." - PsiVen
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Postby Widdox » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:59 am

As far as raid buffs, I'm excited by the idea of filling the raid with the members available and not worrying about raid stacking as much. With all these changes, most riad buffs will be covered no matter who you bring.

Yes even for those min/max guilds who stack raids for best combinations of buffs. With this change you might "need" 7 or so classes for ALL the raid buffs. Then just fill with people who can run out of the freaking fire, and do good dmg.
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:06 am

Proudfoot wrote:We do need to see how it plays out but take this into account. We will be wearing warrior gear so we will literally have base mana. In live I have to pot every 2 mins just to keep dpsing even with judgement of Wisdom up. In Wrath we can't pot non-stop like we do now and I don't want to. The mana return from this talent wasn't even tested properly in the old form since it never did split the mana. Downranking isn't an option anymore either.


Wow. You raid without gear, not Int Buff and no Kings? Damn
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Postby lusisia » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:08 am

Sarkan-ZdC wrote:
Proudfoot wrote:We do need to see how it plays out but take this into account. We will be wearing warrior gear so we will literally have base mana. In live I have to pot every 2 mins just to keep dpsing even with judgement of Wisdom up. In Wrath we can't pot non-stop like we do now and I don't want to. The mana return from this talent wasn't even tested properly in the old form since it never did split the mana. Downranking isn't an option anymore either.


Wow. You raid without gear, not Int Buff and no Kings? Damn


No need to be snarky ;)

But if he does, doesn't that make him even more of a bad ass motherfucker?

"I DON'T FUCKING NEED INT! I'M A HOLY MOTHERFUCKING WARRIOR! FALL OVER NOW!"
"then somehow people manage not to see the forty fucking foot tall of fucking fiery flames of fucking doom ... and we wipe." - Isolfr
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Postby orpheno » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:23 am

Regarding the mana problem...
Let's imagine a retladin at lvl 80 in a specific raid:
enhancement shaman: spring mana fountain -> 20 mana / 2 seconds: 0,6k per minute
palaheal: BoW enhanced -> 109 MP5: 1,3 K per minute
tankadin: BoK -> + 10% int
druid heal: mark of the wild -> +37 int
mage: Brillant intelligence -> +60 int

Pour l'instant, un paladin lambda au lvl70 a 83 d'intelligence de base et une base mana de 2953
Let say that mana base for a lvl80 will be 4000 and intelligence about 110
Paladin's mana bar will be unbuff: 4000 + 20 x 1 + 90 x 15 = 5370

In raid situation it's giving us: 4000 + 20 x 1 + (90 + 60 + 37) x 15 + (110 x 0,1) x 15= 4000 + 2990 = 6990

Let say that now a full buffed paladin in raid has 6K AP

Judging wisdom on a boss will give back 702 mana per tick, it means 10,53K mana per minute
Judgement of wise: 2,1 k mana per minute

That means a total regen about 10,53 + 2,1 + 1,3 + 0,6 = 14,54 K mana per minute

Now lets see how mana we can "burn" in a normal rotation:
Judgement: 5% MB 7 times per minute with enhanced judgement -> 35% : 1,4k mana
Crusader strike: 8% MB 10 times per minute -> 80%: 3,2k mana
Divine storm: 20% MB 6 times per minute -> 120%: 4,8k mana

In 1 minute: 9,4k mana used but he has a regen about more than 50% about what he can burn

Yes sometimes he could have some 'hole' in the rotation but with the different int buff that make the rotation soften, it will be very rare.
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Postby iliya » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:34 am

lusisia wrote:I like to define a nerf as a reduction in the functionality of an ability, skill or talent without a comparable modification somewhere else to balance out the reduction.

I really don't consider the change to JotW to be a nerf. It previously affected only 3 people and was 20% of the damage done returned as mana. Now it grants mana return to 10 people as mp5.

It just doesn't feel like a nerf to me. It feels like a balance being able to affect more people with a trade off on the mana return.


to be honest, though, it still doesn't solve the retribution paladin mana problem, considering that they burn through mana faster than almost anyone and, more importantly, this is going to hurt ret paladins in pvp. the previous system would have allowed ret paladins to last a long longer against certain classes that can drain their mana, directly (mana burn/drain) or indirectly (healers that simply heal through their damage).

It's a nerf. Just like the removal of the secondary effect of crusader strike and the Vengeance reduction. I'm aware it's a beta, but the fact of the matter stands that it's a nerf.
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Postby lusisia » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:37 am

iliya wrote:
lusisia wrote:I like to define a nerf as a reduction in the functionality of an ability, skill or talent without a comparable modification somewhere else to balance out the reduction.

I really don't consider the change to JotW to be a nerf. It previously affected only 3 people and was 20% of the damage done returned as mana. Now it grants mana return to 10 people as mp5.

It just doesn't feel like a nerf to me. It feels like a balance being able to affect more people with a trade off on the mana return.


to be honest, though, it still doesn't solve the retribution paladin mana problem, considering that they burn through mana faster than almost anyone and, more importantly, this is going to hurt ret paladins in pvp. the previous system would have allowed ret paladins to last a long longer against certain classes that can drain their mana, directly (mana burn/drain) or indirectly (healers that simply heal through their damage).

It's a nerf. Just like the removal of the secondary effect of crusader strike and the Vengeance reduction. I'm aware it's a beta, but the fact of the matter stands that it's a nerf.


Well I don't want to argue semantics but if the change goes live, it's not really fair to call it a nerf because you never had it to begin with. It's just like Art of War:

Live - No art of war
Beta - Art of war v.1->Art of war v.2
Live 3.0 - Art of war v.3

You can't really say that AoW was nerf'd because you never had it before. It's just how I feel really. People throw the "nerf" word around more than the word terrorism is thrown around now.
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"It turns out that a large number of people are whiny motherfuckers ..." - PsiVen
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Postby Shoju » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:40 am

So.............. Rogues can now use mind numbing poison as a debuff only? Where the eff is Hemo? You can't count expose armor because it kills a warriors rotation for threat. GG blizz. Thanks for taking a class pretty much completely pvp.

Before you say that I'm wrong, hear me out. There is absolutely NO reason to bring a rogue.

1.) Druids are getting reworked so that Catform is more acceptable DPS. A friend of mine has almost 4k ap in cat form in t5 content with 2 pieces of badge gear under raid buffs, and just over 3k without. (so you can't claim it's the OPness of badge gear.

2.) Expose weakness and imp hunter's mark no longer help rogues.

3) in raid content, you are going to be able to mix and match to get the buffs without "NEEDING" to bring all the classes. So now, your rogue slots can be taken up by druids, enh shaman, and hunters more readily. By ignoring the high dps class, you will be able to make up the difference by smart stakcing your groups so that you can min max your buffs and your raid never notices the lack of the pure damage class.

4.) Rogues are the only 'pure damage' class. Every other class has a buff that helps the cause. Rogues are just greedy bastards who can't help the group except by pewpewing MOOOR. Sure Warriors only have shouts, but have the added effect of tossing on a shield and tanking for a bit longer than a rogue if the pull goes bad.


Sorry I'm still ranting about how rogues are punted with the new changes. I know that they haven't worked on them as much as the other classes, but the trees are meh, and they have no NEED factor to be brought to a raid.
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Postby Keion » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:44 am

Warlocks have CoE as baseline skill. It means that druids and DKs looking for 25 man content are unlikely to take it. Which means that when you miss a lock you tell your druid to spec. Raaaaar!
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