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The definitive WotLK raid buffs/class balance post

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Carabar » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:02 am

Warcraft wrote:Health Buff: Commanding Shout, Blood Pact

That nerf is not welcome. :( Hopefully they'll revert it in favor of tanks. We have gotten exceptions before, after all, like stackable trinket buffs.

Blood Pact is sort of nerfed anyway, so I don't worry quite as much about stacking tbh...
Blood Pact: Grants health instead of Stamina.
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Postby sfrog » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:07 am

In wotlk 10 man raiding, you can rather quickly exclude entire classes.



This is what I'm forseeing happening. Not just for classes but for entire specs. Why bother bringing something that won't buff when you could bring something that can instead? Not really sure I like this newest change. It just seems to be making it out to be well... the dumbing of Warcraft. Meh. Have to see how it actually pans out in raids in Beta, but really, I'm betting entire classes and specs are going to be considered 'useless' for lack of what they bring compared to others.

(edit fixed quotes)
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Postby halabar » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:48 am

yep, surv hunters just got **ed up.
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Postby crabcrouton » Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:43 am

From what I gather, it's not going to be that bad.

It's pretty easy to forget that many 10-man raids right now don't benefit from all of those categories anyways. My ZA raid currently has no feral druid, so we don't benefit from Bleed Damage Increase Debuff, which is fine since nobody uses bleed damage.

Specs typically bring buffs that increase their particular form of damage. So a caster-heavy raid can benefit by having another boosted caster who brings no unique buffs. Otoh, they can switch him/her out for a melee buffing class, but alas that melee buff affects fewer people so it works out to be roughly the same benefit.

Remember, we're talking about a 10 man dungeon where you'd have 1-2 tank(s), and 2-3 healers who bring tanking and healing buffs/debuffs. I just can't believe that 5-7 people can be so homogenized that there's nothing left but to exclude someone to gain a buff.

Stuff like the Armor Increase Percentage Buff is a non-issue since one buff and the tank is already at armor cap. Not to mention it's a healer-specific category that's limited to 2 specs as it stands...

Lastly, categories like Cast Speed Slow and Healing Debuff are extremely niche to the point of borderline uselessness in a raid.

I'd like to see someone build a 10 man raid with no more than 2 of any class and point out any remaining class bring zero buffs/debuffs. With 10 classes (as opposed to 9 as it is now), I just don't see a scenario of having more than 2 people of the same class in a 10-man raid. That's more an issue of poor logistics and not an issue of raid buffs imo.
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Postby Avey » Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:17 am

The only thing that was keeping me from quitting raiding when the expansion comes was the awesome survival tree.... Now that they killed that off they lost a valuable costumer. On behalf of every survival hunter: thanks a lot blizzard.
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Postby Candiru » Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:20 am

How about:

You have an Enhancement shaman and a Moonkin.

Frost/Blood/Unholy Deathknights don't add any buffs.

(Although, the Blood presence will still work, but does that stack with Imp.LOTP?)
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Postby kylone » Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:25 am

You know, maybe we're looking at this the wrong way.
The basic perspective you guys have here is the large (50+ members at max level)
What about the smaller guilds... the ones that can barely scrape together 25 players (probably with some random players not in the guild to boot)? I think these changes are aimed at these guilds.
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Postby Sartor » Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:27 am

That is all good and fine - they already have stated that they had been planning to make classes replaceable in a raid situation.

This step just ensures that.

HOWEVER, I am really concerned for the Retr paladins - they tend to dish ~40% of their mana every 10 seconds.

According to the calculations Judgment of Wisdom will restore:

0.09*(AP+SP) => Assuming a paladin has ~3k AP, and 1200 SP, this means it will restore 378 mana every 4 seconds, or over 10 seconds 756 (2 procs). This is ~19% of the base mana (assuming our base mana is 4k).

Now Replenish would restore 0.5 mana each second for 10 seconds. This is 5% of the base mana.

OK, WTF??? 24% for 10 seconds, and dishing out 40% of the mana every 10 seconds...

I really hope they fix the numbers.

With the later content when I assume a paladin would have ~12k AP (I saw a Screenshot of a Feral druid showing off 11k AP) and ~4k SP (by Sneath of Light), this means it will restore ~1440 mana every 4-5 seconds or over 10 seconds -> 2,5k mana. Well, this might be more reasonable, but I haven't seen anything from the beta as of yet, esp from the end content raids.
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Postby Proudfoot » Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:27 am

Avey wrote:The only thing that was keeping me from quitting raiding when the expansion comes was the awesome survival tree.... Now that they killed that off they lost a valuable costumer. On behalf of every survival hunter: thanks a lot blizzard.


Feeling the same way about Ret... there goes my mana regen and therefore any chance of doing resonable dps.
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Postby Solitatis » Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:34 am

Sartor wrote:HOWEVER, I am really concerned for the Retr paladins - they tend to dish ~40% of their mana every 10 seconds.


I dont belive that 40% is very accurate, i think that is going ALOT over the top. Take away the consecration, wich they prolly wont use, and take into account the new spell costs.

That would be their stable raid dps, They they can use consecration ifand when they have the extra mana.

I really doubt that they will use 40% of their mana pool every 10 secs. Convince me otherwise.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:49 am

Kitsuna wrote:Very interesting changes. Especially the change to bloodlust. Shaman stacking for that last real stacking "exploit" I saw available.

On an unrelated note, avenging wrath is looking pretty lackluster in comparison to bloodlust these days. 30% haste vs. 30% damage doesn't seem too unequal, but when one affects 25 people and the other only 1, it seems a lot less so.
Doesn't work that way. 30% haste won't buff strikes, or instant abilities at all. For us for example, 30% haste just meanst SoCorr stacking 30% faster, maybe not even that since one of the ticks cna be applied with HotR, so MEH at haste.
20% damage on the other hand, truly means 20% more damage!
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Postby Mithos » Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:02 am

The devs wotlk build is miles ahead of the beta build, do you not think that changing the mana return which has a rather large negative effect on ret will cause them to then in turn fix retris mana usage in some other way? In that blue post it states that there will obviously be good and bad effects for classes, some more affected than others, and that those affected negatively will be looked at.

It's not even like paladins have had their second major update yet, can we all stop being so negative? There's no reason to assume the worst anymore because the devs hate us or whatever.

And, well I don't know about everyone else but good players who are "obsolete because someone else has their buff" aren't suddenly gonna be shunned from raids for such reasons in my guild. If you suck at moving out of encapsulate/conflagration/void zones/whatever no amount of buffs short of +1000% run speed is gonna make you suck any less and hence get invited over someone who is actually awake.
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Postby Keion » Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:04 am

For Holy Paladin/ Gnome Arcane Mage with 30K mana pool 0.5% per second is 150 mana, sounds great. For mana starved prot or ret paladins it is not so great. If plate with int and crit and stamina and no SP is implemented expect both ret and holy to use it.
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Postby Bobness » Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:23 am

Time to look out for another Likely change as a consequence...


Benediction:-
Reduces the Mana Cost of Seals/Judgements/Crusader Strike & or Divine Storm by 5%/10%/15%/20%/25%
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Postby Morendin » Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:58 am

Kitsuna wrote:Very interesting changes. Especially the change to bloodlust. Shaman stacking for that last real stacking "exploit" I saw available.

On an unrelated note, avenging wrath is looking pretty lackluster in comparison to bloodlust these days. 30% haste vs. 30% damage doesn't seem too unequal, but when one affects 25 people and the other only 1, it seems a lot less so.


heroism VS AW??
that's apples and grapefruit , compare AW to Deathwish if you want to get even to apples and pears, to bludgeon an analogy long after its death :oops:
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