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The definitive WotLK raid buffs/class balance post

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Postby Boldbeard » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:12 pm

Swagger wrote:
Selinaria wrote:
Swagger wrote:
Selinaria wrote:I'm interested to see what percentage return Judgements of the Wise will receive as well as hunting party and vampiric touch.


Read it again, 0.5% maximum mana per second


yea I was just about to edit my post, just noticed it on second read through :wink:

That seems like a nerf to ret paladins because JotW gave the ret pally so much mana, not sure if 0.5% a second will be enough to keep them going. Yay for more things to test. (and I am completely not sarcastic in that, I want ret pallies to be very viable even if I will never be one)


The thing is, it doesn't make any mention of whether or not JotW will still function as previously for the Paladin that's judging; until I see otherwise, I'll assume it stays the same and they're just updating the mana return mechanism for raid members. If they nerf it in regards to the caster himself though, that will be a terrible, terrible change.


Blue wrote:Judgements of the Wise: Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on Judging.


I read this as 'self' being part of the raid/group. If you are solo, you are the only potential target. The bad part for Ret pallies is, .5% is awefully low for solo mana regen every 8 seconds. But then again, I never a SPriest mana regen themselves completely while solo'ing.

For 25 mans, I would expect that there would be a critical mass on 'mana batteries' where every mana class has the 'Replentishment' buff all the time.
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Postby Swagger » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:13 pm

Selinaria wrote:Agreed Swagger.

I can totally see the talent becoming:

Returns 50% of damage done in mana to the paladin and triggers replenishment on up to 10 individuals.

Or something to that effect.


Yeah, that's about how I'm envisioning it. Too bad most of the posters on the beta forums have no faith in the devs =/
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Re: The definitive WotLK raid buffs/class balance post

Postby Selinaria » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:14 pm

Dorvan wrote:Percentage Increase Healing Received Buff: Tree of Life, Improved Devotion Aura


Another interesting change, gonna make imp devo kinda teh suck again though since really it will only be for the 600 armor upgrade on max rank (assuming you have a dedicated resto druid of course)
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Postby Swagger » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:16 pm

Boldbeard wrote:I read this as 'self' being part of the raid/group. If you are solo, you are the only potential target. The bad part for Ret pallies is, .5% is awefully low for solo mana regen every 8 seconds. But then again, I never a SPriest mana regen themselves completely while solo'ing.

For 25 mans, I would expect that there would be a critical mass on 'mana batteries' where every mana class has the 'Replentishment' buff all the time.


I can solo perpetually with little or no downtime on my shadow priest, and I'm in far from best-in-slot gear. If this "Replenishment" buff is intended to be the only form of regeneration for Ret Paladins, Ret is completely broken again.
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Re: The definitive WotLK raid buffs/class balance post

Postby Dorvan » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:23 pm

Selinaria wrote:
Dorvan wrote:Percentage Increase Healing Received Buff: Tree of Life, Improved Devotion Aura


Another interesting change, gonna make imp devo kinda teh suck again though since really it will only be for the 600 armor upgrade on max rank (assuming you have a dedicated resto druid of course)


I'm a glass full kind of guy....I looked at it and said "yay! 3 talent points I can move elsewhere!"
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Re: The definitive WotLK raid buffs/class balance post

Postby Selinaria » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:36 pm

Dorvan wrote:
Selinaria wrote:
Dorvan wrote:Percentage Increase Healing Received Buff: Tree of Life, Improved Devotion Aura


Another interesting change, gonna make imp devo kinda teh suck again though since really it will only be for the 600 armor upgrade on max rank (assuming you have a dedicated resto druid of course)


I'm a glass full kind of guy....I looked at it and said "yay! 3 talent points I can move elsewhere!"


Oh I agree haha.
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Postby moduspwnens » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:37 pm

I guess I looked at it as "one less thing we have to bring to a raid." :(
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Postby lusisia » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:41 pm

Is anyone noticing the change to the Mana return talents?

JotW now hits 10 people (previously 3, correct?)

The question is how that works in a 25-man. Is it the 10 people that NEED it or based on some sort of group composition? Spriest talent has the same "limitation"
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Postby Velgarn » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:57 pm

I'm guessing it will select the 10 people with the lowest % of mana in the raid, except those that already have the buff. At least that seems like the easiest way to do it. -- of course, if 10 people can't be found that don't already have the buff, it should be smart enough to refresh the buff on those with the lowest % of mana with the least amount of time on the buff.

I really, really hope they keep a % of damage modifier back to the paladin... because otherwise they break us again. I need a big mana pool, wait no I need warrior DPS gear, wait I need a mana pool or I go OOM and can't do anything... No wait, I need to PvP in order to gear properly... ... ... yeah....
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Postby Selinaria » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:59 pm

moduspwnens wrote:I guess I looked at it as "one less thing we have to bring to a raid." :(


While it can be looked at in that light, pretty much every class can look at it like that if they choose to.

Almost every buff that used to unique can now be replaced by something else. So either way we look at it, it's kinda status quo really.
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Re: The definitive WotLK raid buffs/class balance post

Postby Soltyr » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:13 pm

Selinaria wrote:
Dorvan wrote:Percentage Increase Healing Received Buff: Tree of Life, Improved Devotion Aura


Another interesting change, gonna make imp devo kinda teh suck again though since really it will only be for the 600 armor upgrade on max rank (assuming you have a dedicated resto druid of course)


They said nothing about Stoneskin Totem too, if it does stack or not with devo. Then, I can skip ImpDevo but I can't skip BoSanc and the list goes on for others as well.

They need to address the amount of wasted point in the trees for many class now or it's just started the templates-war in a 25 men raid.
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Postby Tradyk » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:22 pm

I foresee this causing alot of Min/Maxing. It's going to come down to maybe 4 or 5 classes whose debuffs dont stack with other classes, but do more dps then the other classes, and you're going to end up with those other class/specs just not getting raid spots. With Moonkin's getting the same haste buff as Ret's, plus greater spell caster crit rate, and their big on crit haste buff, and hunters being as much of a mana battery and the same damage buff, but with a much higher dps, Ret pally's have gone from being No. 1 choice in the beta to not making it even in 25-man's.

Imp Dev. Aura will never be taken by anyone outside of a 5-man, or possibly 10 mans when you know you'll never have a drood.

Since everyone is going to have practically the same buffs, its going to come down to just who can do the most damage, since everyone has the same utility. And once the game goes live, that means 2-3 dps classes for 15 dps spots, and the rest just left out in the cold.
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Postby Elsie » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:28 pm

I think it's rather interesting because now you need 4 paladins if you want to fully buff the raid.
3% less damage taken on the raid saves the same as improved devotion would have and is pro-active instead of re-active. I still don't like that we -have- to spec into it for the benefit, though, as most optimized raids will not have a holy paladin spec'd into prot. It would actually be kinda stupid.

Improved Devotion Aura will be entirely dependent on how mobile the fight is. There are sunwell fights and strategies that make Tree Form a bad idea.

Perhaps they will change it after a year of no one, ever, casting sanctuary.

...anyway, ret looks rather hosed if there's a boomkin around. Ferocious Inspiration is 1% better. JoW can be given by... lots of people. Blessing of Might isn't necessary with Battle Shout. Basically the only thing a retribution supplies with these changes is... ret aura for a prot paladin. All the other benefits are replaceable by other classes with less replaceable buffs. Bah.
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Postby Warcraft » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:31 pm

I know that everyone is focusing on Improved Devotion Aura and Blessing of Sanctuary right now, but there seems to be another change on that list that may be more significant for us than both of those...

Health Buff: Commanding Shout, Blood Pact

That nerf is not welcome. :( Hopefully they'll revert it in favor of tanks. We have gotten exceptions before, after all, like stackable trinket buffs.
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Postby PsiVen » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:35 pm

I can't remember the last time I had both Commanding Shout *and* Blood Pact. Obviously we won't be tuned to need the missing HP anyway.
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